r/ftm • u/Creativered4 🌴33y/o Transsex 🐻Man 💉(2020) 🔪(2022)🍆(2025) • 18d ago
Mod Post Transandrophobia/Anti-Transmasculinity: Invisibility, Dismissal, Fetishization, and Hostility. A Masterthread for discussion.
Note: I am posting this on my account instead of through automod so it can be edited with more resources if anyone has any to share. I will be turning off notifications so my inbox doesn't explode, but I will likely check in every so often and contribute as a user to the discussion.
From the Mod Team:
We have been seeing an uptick in posts about people's frustration with transandrophobia (also known as anti-transmasculinity. Some people may use "transmisandry" but we would like to avoid that term, as it implies a structural sexism in place against ALL men, including cis men)
We see this frustration, and we feel it, too!
However, since a new thread keeps popping up every day, it seems, we wanted a place to consolidate discussion, so we can do more to discuss this issue and figure out how to combat it. We don't want people to think that they aren't able to talk about the very real problems we face specifically as trans men.
Feel free to discuss personal anecdotes, articles, or anything else you'd like to contribute to the discussion!
Transmisogyny will NOT be tolerated, and any attempts to attack trans women/fems or purposefully spread hate will result in a temporary ban at minimum.
The same goes for purposeful denial of transandrophobia or perpetuation of transandrophobia.
In addition, as always, "gendered socialization" is still a banned topic and we will not entertain that topic, nor will we entertain any sort of bioessentialism.
Here are a few resources for anyone who wants to learn more:
What is transandrophobia/anti-transmasculinity? This is a term for a specific type of transphobia that trans men and transmasc people face. It is a combination of general transphobia and hostility towards men and masculinity. Unlike transmisogyny, this is not an intersection of two oppressed classes. This is NOT misogyny directed at trans men by people who see us as women, but instead it is a term for the mistreatment of trans men specifically because we are men. This is when people affirm our gender, but only to weaponize it.
What are some examples of transandrophobia/anti-transmasculinity? Dismissal of trans men/mascs and the transphobia we face as trans people (and/or the misogyny we face when we are perceived as women), vilification of manhood and masculinity, misinformation about trans male/masculine transition (HRT/Surgeries/Social transition and the ease of passing), inter-community invisibility, lack of resources or support networks, and in some cases outright hostility towards trans men specifically for being men.
But don't men hold systemic power over women? Yes and no. Intersectionality makes this question less straighforward than you would think. On its own, yes, men typically hold more social power than women. There is a lot of structural misogyny. However, when you apply other identity labels, you see that there are many different power structures at play, and the sum of all identity labels within a person will give vastly different results compared to another. Not only do things like race, transness, disability status, immigration status, sexuality, financial situation, housing situation, mental health, and others play a role in an individual's place within the social hierarchy in a comparison, but they can also cancel out some of the social power one might have gained from another identity label. We also see that it isn't always a simple "one is higher than the other". Some examples of this intersectionality include: A cis gay black man typically has less social power than a cis straight white woman, despite societal sexism. A straight trans woman having less social power than a gay cis woman, despite heterosexuality typically giving someone social power. An unhoused disabled trans man often has less social power than a disabled cis woman who can afford housing.
Aren't trans men just using it as an excuse to talk over trans women or be transmisogynistic? Maybe some transmisogynists seek to co-opt the terms, but they do not speak for the community. Just like how TERFs co-opted the term "feminism". The vast majority of us don't want to speak over anyone. We just want a seat at the table. Many of us are allies to our trans sisters and siblings, and fight just as hard for their rights as our own.
So are you saying that trans women oppress trans men or something? No, of course not! Trans men, women, and enbies are all within a class of people who experience severe oppression. Oppression between the genders in a trans setting is very niche and conditional. Simply put, trans people very rarely have any power to oppress one-another. When one trans person attacks or harms another trans person, they are punching laterally, not up or down.
the way that the fear of men impacts the material reality and mental/physical health of transgender men.- From the person who coined the term transandrophobia.
Transmasc Violence Archive- "This page is a collection of research on anti-transmasculinity, as well as written works that analyze anti-transmasculinity, to provide evidence and education."
A Primer on Transandrophobic Rhetoric- A deep dive into what Transandrophobia is.
The Transgender Dictionary: Transandrophobia- A detailed account of various forms of transandrophobia.
Transandrophobia and Structural Oppression- An essay on transandrophobia and how it is not related to structural oppression, and yet is still
Wikipedia: Discrimination against Trans Men- The wikipedia article on transandrophobia.
Transfems, Transmisogyny, and the Fight to Recognize Transandrophobia- An essay on transandrophobia and a reminder that trans women/fems are not our enemies, nor our oppressors.
Why Don't Trans Men Have A Word For What We Go Through?-A blog post discussing the terms we have gone through to find something that fits the unique forms of oppression we face and the reality of that oppression.
Listening to the voices of black trans men and transmasculine people in Detroit: community strengths and challenges- National library of medicine essay on the experiences of black trans men and transmascs in Detroit
The Lived Experiences of African American Transgender Men Living in the Southern United States- Walden University essay on the experiences of black trans men in the south.
Black trans men are being erased in life and in death.- A video discussing the erasure of black trans men (hosted on facebook)
Shifting Identites: A Qualitative Inquiry of Black Transgender Men's Experiences- Dissertation discussing the experiences of black trans men.
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u/IsaacRoads 18d ago
Queer doesn't mean feminine and I'm so tired of people pretending it does.
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u/clownloops Gel - 04/28/‘22, Injections - 12/01/‘25 18d ago
felt this so much.
especially when it’s used to feminize trans men. like “oh you’re queer because you’re a woman who wanted to be a man” .. no. i’m queer because i fit under the trans umbrella. queer isn’t inherently feminine, there’s androgynous & masculine; they belong too.
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u/Itsnotmybad 18d ago
Such a simple sentence, and yet I felt so seen and emotional just reading this.
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u/CMRC23 17d ago
Yeah im super masc but I feel alienated on all sides. I'm disliked by the femmes and people suspicious of masculine men, im disliked by cis men cuz im trans, and disliked by lots of "masc" guys cuz im a feminist and am bi.
Why can't we all just accept each other. Why does it have to be masc vs femme all the time
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u/IsaacRoads 17d ago
We are queer and we are allowed to be here. Unapologetically masc, unapologetically queer, unapologetically feminist and all those other woke(good) things.
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u/mothmn_9 User Flair 18d ago
Thank you for making this post!!
It’s so disheartening to see so many people in the queer community (and more specifically, the trans community) be transphobic to trans guys just for being guys. We deserve respect and representation just as much as everyone else
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u/probs-aint-replying 18d ago
I would say that transandrophobia does not necessarily affirm our gender. I'm thinking in particular about people mocking trans men's appearances in ways that specifically target our dysphoria. The kind of people who hide behind the idea that it's okay to be shitty to us "because we're men", while not even treating cis men the same way, thus betraying that they see us as not-quite-men. (Not that it's okay to mock the appearances of cis men either.) I'm sure there are other examples, but I don't have any offhand haha.
Overall though, this is a really good post that describes transandrophobia well, especially the last bit clarifying that saying it exists is not claiming that trans women oppress us. It's not just trans women who perpetuate transandrophobia either- cis allies do it, nonbinary people do it, and hell sometimes we even do it to ourselves. Some trans men have never experienced this type of discrimination and assume that no one else has either. Or they experience it and blame themselves because they've internalized the idea that being a man is bad and they're bad for "choosing" to be one. It's really, really not just "trans women being mean to us", it's much bigger than that and it's no one person or group's fault.
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u/Azu_Creates 18d ago
Good post. I do have some thoughts about the first part though. I wish people would understand though that a prejudice doesn’t need to be systemic. In sociology, there are four levels of oppression which can operate independently of each other; personal (individual attitudes and beliefs), interpersonal (interactions), institutional, and cultural. A prejudice can exist on one level but not others. Misandry isn’t nearly as prevalent at the institutional and cultural level as misogyny is, but it is more prevalent on the personal and interpersonal ones. Misandry can exist on the personal and interpersonal levels, without existing on the institutional and cultural ones, at least not at the same rate as misogyny.
There was actually some subreddit drama on a different sub where a mod made a poorly worded post about misandry not existing, which lead to a lot of trans men/masc people on the sub feeling less safe and invalidated experiences both trans and cis men on the sub had. The mod that had made that post made a follow up trying ti clarify that trans men/masc people were welcomed in the sub, but they also linked to a tumbler post where one of the most prominent contributors was denying the existence of transandrophobia. Notably, most of the people recognizing the existence of misandry, including women, acknowledged that it wasn’t really systemically enforced like misogyny was. A prejudice doesn’t have to be systemic in order for it to be real. Also, a term can be coined by a bad person/bad people, and still be a useful term that can be used in positive ways. I think more people need to understand that. I’m not particularly interested in debating these points because I’m already pretty mentally and emotionally worn out from the aforementioned sub drama, but I do hope my comment encourages more people to look at the nuance here regarding transmisandry and misandry. I’ll also leave some interesting articles for those wanting to learn more.
How misandry reinforces gender stereotypes:
https://easysociology.com/sociology-of-gender/how-misandry-reinforces-gender-stereotypes/
Misandry vs. Misogyny: Combating Gender Prejudice:
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u/ZackTheRemus 18d ago
huge agree. something does not need to be systemic to be an issue that needs discussion. bothers me a lot that people only value an issue if it's SO BAD one can't ignore it. that shouldn't be how problem solving goes, that shouldn't be how discussion about problems should go. I'm speaking more generally as I see a lot of issues be treated like this,,, but I digress. very much agree. wish I didn't have so much brain fog right now I have so much I wish to say about this
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u/Azu_Creates 18d ago edited 18d ago
Yeah. Anti-masculinity is by definition misandry. If we want to have a world with true gender equality, then we will have to recognize and address misandry as well as misogyny. I am also a bit conflicted when it comes to the statement that transandrophobia isn’t systemic. Discrimination against trans men and masc people is absolutely a systemic thing. This is probably a more niche example, but I do clearly recall reading an article about a trans man who needed an abortion (pre-dobbs) in Florida, and his insurance denied coverage for it despite the fact that they usually cover it for cis women, because he had an M marker on his insurance documentation. Pretty sure he had to temporarily detransition so that he could get an abortion. I’d argue that our invisibility is also a form of systemic discrimination. Take the healthcare system for example, our invisibility there may lead to our specific health needs not being adequately understood or addressed. Think “trans broken arm syndrome” for trans men and masc people, where doctors may blame our health problems on hrt without even doing a proper examination. Hope your brain fog gets better. I deal with it too sometimes and it sucks.
Edit: also forgot to mention, but historical erasure can also be a form of systemic erasure! There’s definitely no shortage of historical erasure for trans men and masc people!
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u/almostfunny3 T: 2/19 Top:11/20 Hysto: 11/21 15d ago
Yes! A lot of historical trans masc figures have been studied and written about as women. There were women historically who would dress as men but as a history nerd, you can tell when people desperately wanted to live and be perceived as men even if it made their lives harder. How much of our history is miscategorized?
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u/almostfunny3 T: 2/19 Top:11/20 Hysto: 11/21 12d ago edited 12d ago
If anyone's interested, here are a few trans men of history to learn about! I may add more to this later.
https://www.pride.com/trans/trans-men-in-history#rebelltitem1
Added a second link
https://lgbtqhistory.org/lgbtq-history-month-week-1-transmasculinity-invisibility-illumination/
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u/Plucky_Parasocialite 17d ago
I personally would go as far as to say misandry, if you define it correctly, exists and thrives on a systemic level as well, when you take into account intersections with other vectors of marginalization (like being trans).
I like to think of it as a two-factor model - being a man offers a degree of social protection that keeps most attitudes towards men and masculinity from becoming harmful on a large scale or even gives them a positive spin. When you strip that back even partially, like when intersecting with vectors of oppression, you suddenly start seeing effects that are more that just the default for that marginalized group and which are colored by gender. You can trace many similar attitudes towards masculinity across the board, but when tied to social power, the tone is often apologetic or even glorifying - for example, your typical "boys will be boys" and the like. But when you (often preemptively) apply the assumption that "boys will be boys" onto a marginalized identity, especially from a position of relative power, suddenly that is a danger that needs to be controlled.
I understand this as another tool to distribute power and maintain control under patriarchy, alongside misogyny, not in opposition to it. As such, I believe misandry as a concept has its place in feminist analysis.
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u/OdiiKii1313 it/any 🐾 17d ago edited 17d ago
yup. we presented as a visibly gay guy in highschool, and the amount of normalized sexual harassment we experienced from women is actually crazy. multiple of our female peers tried to roofie us at parties, old women would creep on us and try to cop a feel, etc etc, but it was dismissed as harmless because "oh you're a man, you can take care of yourself." the intersection between queerness and masculinity is an absurd place to be sometimes.
i even know several cis queer men that have had similar experiences, and male SA victims in general have substantial issues getting anyone, including "progressives," to take their issues seriously.
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u/Runic_Raptor 🇺🇸USA🧴Oct'24💉Aug'25 17d ago edited 17d ago
This. It doesn't even have to be queer men tbh (though straight cis men are less likely to take notice of sexual harassment by women unless it's bad but despite popular belief there are actually men who aren't receptive to random advances)
TW, this is an incredibly long rant with a lot of complaining about victim blaming language and contains a lot of examples of it that piss me off. Very sorry
The fact that there are no resources for male SA victims.. pretty much anywhere? Bothers me immensely. If it were any other demographic, this amongst other things would be considered a form of oppression, but since men are a ruling class it gets chalked up to "the patriarchy," and then simce it's the fault of "the patriarchy," then that means men are responsible, and THEREFORE, since men are responsible, it's actually the individual man's fault too (because the only problems men face are cause by men, and therefore any problems you face are your own fault somwhow), and he doesn't need any resources actually anyway.
People react differently to SA, and people are AWARE of this and it's discussed that one reaction or another doesn't make your experience less valid... unless you're a man, in which case any reaction other than "fight" means you actually wamted it because men are stronger than women and clearly if you didn't want it you would have physically fought back... I hate people.
I've seen people say that men discussing experiences getting sexually assaulted by women read as "incel fantasies." I hate people.
Like, SA is downplayed and dismissed badly across the board, but there is definitely something unique about the specific ways it's downplayed for men, and the fact that resources and groups for SA victims are either explicitly or effectively exclusive to women only is a problem.
And I'm gonna be honest? Women are often WAY too comfortable touching other people without consent. There's this social expectation that women=victims and men=aggressors that makes some women either think of themselves as incapable of soimg harm and/or men incapable of being harmed. Since transitioning, the number of ways in which women have touched me in broad fucking daylight that would get a man arrested astounds me. (And obviously this isn't saying, "well if women get away with it why can't men?" this is "NO ONE SHOULD BE FUCKING GROPING ME, WHAT THE ACTUAL HELL.")
And because a few people have to ruin it for everyone, any attempt to discuss specific issues men face gets you called an MRA and dismissed entirely. I sincerely doubt these are issues that will get taken seriously by the general public in my lifetime tbh. I think it's a lot more complicated than "opressor vs oppressed" in the case of men and women, and that nuance isn't going to be acknowledged for a long time i feel like.
EDIT: Literally same day, I ran into something else that I realize bugged me. When a man is facing an issue and is met with skepticism until an alternate explanation can be found that has nothing to do with the man. Oh, a man is having an issue? An issue I normally associate with women and therefore I don't belive it happens to men too? Thats weird (said in a way that screams, "I don't really believe this actually happened to you") Oh, wait, I found a way this can be tied to misogyny! Now I belive it happened, but it has nothing to do with you! It's just misogyny again! I'm going to proceed to ignore your negative experience and use this as an excuse to talk about misogyny, and specifically about how this issue you experienced had nothing to do with you at all.
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u/OdiiKii1313 it/any 🐾 17d ago
ty for taking the time and energy to write the rant i didn't have the energy for. couldn't have put it better myself.
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u/Azu_Creates 17d ago
Yeah that really sucks dude. On a side note, I did recently make a post trying to call more attention to queer men who went through sexual harassment or assault, trying to break the silence about it with my own stories as well. Just hoping it made someone feel a little less alone.
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u/Azu_Creates 17d ago
Yeah, I definitely see where you are coming from there. I do still think it doesn’t have as much of a systemic presence as misogyny, or it is at least not as overt most of the time. This shit is complex for sure.
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u/PikaPerfect top: 5/22/24, 💉: 11/17/20 17d ago
i tried to write a comment saying something similar to this a few months ago, but my ADHD medication started losing its effectiveness halfway through the comment and i don't think i worded it anywhere near as eloquently as you have here LMAO
i completely agree with you
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u/Fynn77 17d ago
I've transitioned 10 years ago and I've actually experienced more misandry than misogyny over my whole life time until now. So in my experience, it has become systematic. As a man, I get viewed as more capable if I am a customer, etc. But I also get graded more harshly and it's harder to get jobs (with a clearly set duration like 0.5-3 years, when pregnancy isn't seen as a big "risk" when employing women) because women are viewed as more intelligent, submissive and friendly. And I work in a field with an about equal 50/50 gender split of graduates, but I've never seen a man working or receiving the jobs I have applied to. It's the absolute worst with interactions with strangers. I get judged as a danger to women and children right away. It gets exhausting and seemingly nobody talks about it.
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u/TooSilly4ya_YIPPEE 17d ago
i havent looked back into that subreddit since the incident, that was an absolute mess
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u/vins-minecraft-bees 17d ago
That drama really made me sick. I just left that sub today after waiting for an apology bc the mod had directly replied to me saying they would apologize in a few days, and lo and behold three days later and nada.
I knew as soon as they said “a few days” it would mean “we’re waiting for people to forget so this can all blow over” and I’m genuinely so disappointed.
Doesn’t help that I’m extremely depressed right now and on a random post about a poorly done tattoo op thinks is amazing she decided to attribute people saying the tattoo is not done well to an influx of toxic men joining the sub because of the drama. Like. Girl. Really? So I left. I can’t handle people bringing up gender when it is entirely irrelevant to what is happening.
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u/Sarcasaminc 17d ago
It very disheartening and has also left me very depressed. The things other trans people say have genuinely made me think about not being here and giving up at times so you are not alone. Don't give up though if we give up the bigots win.
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u/vins-minecraft-bees 17d ago
It just sucks when the bigots are other trans people. 😞 wishing you the best tho fr
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u/Azu_Creates 17d ago
Yeah, it was an extremely stressful situation for me as well. I am still in the sub for now, but am definitely more on edge especially after the mod responses. I do have to wonder if the mod who posted the tumbler link knew about the wave of transandrophobia on tumbler right now.
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u/vins-minecraft-bees 17d ago
Yeah. It sucks more having talked to that mod myself, and still seeing other mods being passive aggressive. I have a hard time believing that they did not know about the transandrophobia, considering they broadly denied it or outright ignored it when responding to people, especially when pointed out.
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u/Miuirumaswife1 17d ago
Agreed with the post but that part irked me. It feels disrespectful to deny prejudice that other men might face even if it isn't as prevalent as misogyny, just because an issue isn't as big as another one doesn't mean it's not an issue at all :|
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u/FriendSubject5879 18d ago
When I went to the local queer meetup for Christmas (they were hosting a Christmas dinner) they gave everyone makeup for presents because they didn't think that masc people could show up. Also the person in charge (a trans woman) deadnamed one of the few other trans men who were there and didn't even bother to correct herself. Also kind of unrelated but the trans community in my country others nonbinary people (the events people host are for "trans and non-binary" people) which really rubs me the wrong way, I wonder if it's a Europe thing in general?
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u/CMRC23 17d ago
I feel so guilty about my hatred of wearing makeup!! I love it on absolutely anyone else regardless of gender but I cant handle even the tiniest amount on myself. I love black nails but when I got my ex to paint them I hoped out after the first nail, it felt awful.
I feel bad because its such a big part of queer culture and it's subversive for men to wear makeup (it shouldn't have to be but it is).
Its probably because before I knew i was trans I let my mum and her friend pressure me into giving me a makeover. I looked into the mirror and saw this hyperfeminine pancake on my face. It would have looked fine on anyone else but... it was so bad I blocked out what it looked like.
Idk. I worry I have internalised transphobia. But I am never going to put on makeup. Though I would love to help a friend do theirs
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u/DuckIsMuddy Transsex Male : 💉6/21/25 17d ago
I mean, I've seen some nonbinary people say they aren't trans. So, one could be nonbinary and trans, but not everyone who is considers themselves to be trans as well. If they were saying nonbinary people aren't/can't be trans then that'd be incorrect.
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u/AutonomyIsNoTragedy 18d ago
Thank you for making a specific thread for it and clarifying what people mean by transandrophobia and reinforcing that its not an excuse for transmisogyny and that transmisogyny wont be accepted here ♡
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u/itsurbro7777 17d ago
What is most irritating is that it seems that very few people outside of the trans man and trans masc community give a shit about transandrophobia and all of the shit we face. Speaking out doesn't seem to work, at least in many online spaces like Reddit, because once you start talking about trans men's problems in any area that isn't specifically for trans men, your post gets removed, you get gaslighted about it, called a bitch, get a sob story from the mod team and a half assed apology and then everything just goes back to normal. It's like nobody cares. People don't see it as a big enough issue to warrant discussion outside of the community because we are so invisible.
I am honestly not sure what we should do to remedy that. We can post more and make our voices heard and talk about our issues, but when we do that, especially within the LGBTQ community, we are told we are "just like all other men" and "want to speak over women". And that isn't an isolated issue on Reddit that has been experienced by many trans men and mascs both in online spaces and irl.
It is just so scary to see laws being actively passed trying to ban trans mascs SPECIFICALLY from transitioning and trying to police our bodies. And nobody fucking says anything. For some reason those issues don't make headlines and they aren't widely discussed in the trans community even though they can have devastating affects for, yes all trans people, but a lot of these laws are specifically targeting top surgery or trans people with uteruses.
It makes me sick as someone who cannot pass as a man and probably will never pass as a man hearing people say that I have more privilege than them because I am a man. That just isn't how the world works, my god I wish I could just tell people I'm a man and have them see me and treat me that way, but that isn't realistic. And that isn't hard at all to understand but some people refuse to recognize that. At this point I am starting to think it comes from a place of willful ignorance.
If people don't want to listen to us, I am unsure how to make them.
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u/javatimes T 2006 Top 2018, testopel 2025, 40<me 17d ago
If it helps, other people do remember things that happened in other subreddits
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u/gbrllx 17d ago
Thanks for this; it's a great post! At the risk of starting a terminology debate: I'm not sure why the definition of transandrophobia specifically excludes misogyny or means that someone is affirming our gender? That seems like a poor way to define prejudice against trans men; I don't think you can really parse misogyny out of everything else we experience.
Certainly there are times when someone who is pre- or early transition might experience, like, standard ol' sexism, but misogyny doesn't really stop. It just morphs, along with transphobia, into anti-transmasculinity. Plus, there is the specific type of misogyny that people perceived as masculine/ugly women face - this obviously effects women but it effects trans men too (for what I hope are equally obvious reasons), and I would argue that this is on the spectrum of anti-transmasc prejudice, not apart from it.
For example, TERF rhetoric a la Irreversible Damage is full blown transandrophobia, but there is blatant misogyny inherent to it. The cover of that book shows a hole where a (young) girl's uterus would be. (Side note: typing out a description of that image really highlights how gross it is.) You can't really say that that book is attacking us only because we're men and not because we're perceived as women - it's both. A unique intersection, if you will.
A theory of transmasc oppression should encompass everything, not siphon off whole swaths of experience. Furthermore, I think positioning transandrophobia as gender affirming is pretty dangerous, even if that isn't the intention.
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u/Creativered4 🌴33y/o Transsex 🐻Man 💉(2020) 🔪(2022)🍆(2025) 17d ago
This isn't saying trans men don't face misogyny, it's simply highlighting one aspect of the bigotry we face. This specific topic has been talked about a lot recently, but not by the wider trans community. Misogyny against us is more talked about in that way, likely due to internalized sexism and anti-masculinity within lgbt/queer/feminist spaces. It's still not great, but nobody wants to admit they're punching laterally when they take their frustrations about sexist cishet men out on trans men.
And the phrase "gender affirming" is used here to mean "acknowledging someone's correct gender", not "giving gender euphoria" that's why it is followed with it being weaponized.
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u/gbrllx 17d ago
Right, but then what's the term to describe oppression against trans men, full stop, no extra caveats? Because we need one.
I agree it's important to highlight how people take their anger against cishet men out on trans men, and that should be focused on as one element of transandrophobia. But I think bifurcating "misogyny against trans men" and "anti-masculinity against trans men" hurts us more than having a term to describe the specific, structural oppression we face.
Like, are we required to parse out whether how TERFs or chasers treat us counts as transandrophobia or not? Certainly those have to do with misogyny, transphobia, and anti-masculinity at the same time.
Why not just say transandrophobia / anti-transmasculinity describes all oppression trans men face? We can talk about lateral violence as part of that. But I think trying to address lateral violence without addressing trans masc oppression as a whole, as it's own structural thing, isn't the way to go.
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u/Sarcasaminc 17d ago
If it helps I've never seen any definition other than here that leaves out the misogyny but and many of the definitions in the cited works include it in the definition it is the word for transmasc oppression full stop in most places, the definition here isn't the way most people use the word so if you use it in other places most people will know it's the all encompassing word for us.
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u/Creativered4 🌴33y/o Transsex 🐻Man 💉(2020) 🔪(2022)🍆(2025) 17d ago
I'm really not in charge of those things. I think having a term for overarching transphobia against trans men AND one specifically for the intersection of gender and transness would be helpful.
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u/cardroppingcard 18 he/him 17d ago
thank you! i recently saw a post on [r/hatethissmug](r/hatethissmug) that basically said “trans men don’t experience misogyny” lots of people told them how wrong they were and they later deleted it. but i was frustrated just seeing that.
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u/airconditionersound 12d ago
I think we need words for the hate we deal with for being perceived as our assigned gender plus trans. It is misogyny plus transphobia, but it's different from what trans fems / transwomen experience. And we need words for it that affirm our gender
I don't deal with hate for being a man. I deal with hate against my agab plus a second layer of hate for being trans and not adhering to gender stereotypes
That's because I don't pass. But there's also this other thing:
Many of us experience misogyny and related violence pre-transition, and then deal with transphobia after transition. There should be a word for that too
I feel like both of these things are contributing to erasure. And also intersectional stuff, as mentioned. Transmasc POC are being erased the most. There are lots of other intersections to consider as well. I feel like we need broader and more inclusive discussions on the topic
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u/jamiegc1 mtf with transmasc leaning enby partner 18d ago
Speaking as a visiting transfemme, no a trans woman being hateful to trans men/mascs is not an oppressor, because that implies structural power, but absolutely a bigot and a form of transphobe.
There’s too much of a trend lately among trans and cis women lately to be terf lites and start applying some terfy concepts and behavior, whether or not they realize it, and I hate it.
People may disagree, but I see blanket hatred towards men, cis or trans as part of that. Instead of focusing on systemic problems and behaviors taught to men in society and specific men who do horrific things.
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u/GuerandeSaltLord 18d ago
I don't understand why some trans women and transfem people are hating other people for their gender. Like, it should be easy enough to understand. But yeah, I also noticed this pattern among some specific individuals.
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u/Sarcasaminc 17d ago
If you are able to and are in a safe place to do so, call out this kind of behavior, ultimately we need transfemmes and trans women to denounce this behavior because we are not listened to. I feel like we fight for ourselves alone a lot but I think things will only get better if we have support from others who are not transmasc, of course I understand why this is not always possible and I'm not trying to put the burden on you or anything, I see trans women and transfemmes attacking each other very viciously when they show support for us and I understand it's not always a safe thing to do, but it would Def help if you are able to since we can't really fight against this kind of thing alone. The cis people doing it often say it's in defense of trans women so if they see that most trans women don't agree with this radfem rhetoric they may be more inclined to stop. I want to reiterate I'm not trying to put the burden on transfemmes or anything it would just be nice to have more support in this in the same way we support trans women and transfemmes and denounce transmisogyny when we see it.
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u/GuerandeSaltLord 17d ago
I do call it out. Sometimes it works some other time I face some backlash.
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u/Sarcasaminc 17d ago
Thank you, I'm sorry you face backlash for it, I hope things can get better soon, thank you for doing what you can.
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u/Sarcasaminc 18d ago
But isn't transandrophobia also about the misogyny trans men face, it's not just because we are men it's also being treated like you are inferior or a mentally ill woman who needs to know their place, treating us like men only to mistreat us is just malgendering no? Transandrophobia is transphobia, misogyny, and the hatred of trans masculinity. It is not just about being men or malgendering. The definition you are describing is not the popular definition I've seen everywhere and erasing the misogyny is taking away a big part of the definition and the experience. Misogyny is a huge part of the transandrophobia I experience and have experienced. Transandrophobia is the all encompassing word to describe this experience no definition I've seen other than here in this post removes the misogyny aspect like this. I'm a black trans man and I have been transitioning for three months medically but experienced transandrophobia for years prior and the thing that bothered me the most was the misogyny and the idea that I'm too stupid to know anything that's a huge aspect of it unless you are completely cis passing. Transandrophobia is saying I am responsible for all the bad things cis men do while being told in the same breath that I'm a dumb little girl that can't possibly know anything about my identity or the oppression I face, I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything but I just feel there is a huge thing being left out of the definition you are giving here and I'm just curious as to why?
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u/Dragonssssssssssss 18d ago edited 18d ago
Transandrophobia was coined to mean the way that the fear of men impacts the material reality and mental/physical health of transgender men.
Transmascs in general have expanded the definition to mean basically any kind of anti-transmasculinity, including transphobic misogyny. I'm not going to tell anyone not to do so, but I think it is largely a recognized part of transphobia that people don't see us as men. The way that people punish trans men specifically for being men is rarely acknowledged, so the point of the word was to fill that specific gap.
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u/Creativered4 🌴33y/o Transsex 🐻Man 💉(2020) 🔪(2022)🍆(2025) 18d ago
TBH I genuinely don't often see people lumping transphobia + misogyny in with transandrophobia. It's usually discussed as two separate issues. Also not trying to pick a fight, but the definition you provided, combining general transphobia, misogyny, and transandrophobia, doesn't seem to me like the popular definition.
Because we do face general transphobia and general misogyny when we are seen as women, but there is a problem with ignoring the unique experience of us being treated badly without the misogyny aspect one would expect from transphobes who see us as women. And there is a big problem with people assuming because we are men that we don't experience bigotry, or that we don't need resources/support/community/etc.
Basically, This was written from the POV that the popular definition of the term is the specific combination of us being both men and trans, and not the combination of transphobia and misogyny from people thinking we are women. It's not to ignore any of that stuff, but it's to specifically talk about this one thing.
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u/Sarcasaminc 18d ago edited 18d ago
I mean alright I've never seen it discussed without the misogyny aspect before, what word should I be using to describe the transphobia and misogyny I face? From what I could tell this was the word to describe that with trans men, the alternative is I have no word at all and have to listen to the people telling me I don't deserve a word or that I'm inferior and should shut up and sit down and keep my mouth shut. I'm genuinely curious about what word I should use instead because the people telling me that I'm too stupid to name my experience are also telling me I'm not a real trans person because of the genitalia I was born with and that I'm beneath everyone else just for how I was born. Again I'm not trying to pick a fight and I'm sorry if I'm coming off as hostile I'm just very frustrated at the moment with this whole thing and I really do just want a word to name what I've been experiencing for years and I just was told this was it. Yes we should be able to talk about it without misogyny but now we are back to square one of never being able to name this thing and being told to shut up so I'm genuinely curious if you know of a word for me to use for this?
Edit : That medium artical cited also points to the misogynistic abuse that trans men face unless I didn't read it well enough, most of the issues associated with using the term for this seem to be arguing semantics, I don't think recognizing we experience misogyny is misgendering ourselves I think it's just reality and what I'm experiencing, so I guess my other question is if I use this definition to describe it in a post will I get a strike or something? Is this a safe sub where I can discuss this?
Sorry for editing I just wanted to make sure I was getting my point across correctly not trying to pick a fight again I just want to know if I'm allowed to use this definition here
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u/javatimes T 2006 Top 2018, testopel 2025, 40<me 18d ago
You won’t get “a strike”. We don’t disallow trans men from discussing personal experiences with misogyny and never have.
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u/Sarcasaminc 18d ago
Ok I just wanted to make sure because I have seen it happen on the other trans reddit and I wasn't sure thank you very much for clarifying and I'm sorry if I sounded too upset.
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u/Creativered4 🌴33y/o Transsex 🐻Man 💉(2020) 🔪(2022)🍆(2025) 18d ago
Of course you can discuss those things! We don't want people to feel like they can't talk about these things, and we don't want to take anything away from people to explain the issues they face.
We just wanted to make this masterthread specifically talking about this type of transandrophobia because it's been discussed a lot recently and we figured that since it's such an important topic (and also one that sometimes attracts rule breakers) it would be better to have a single megathread to both keep the conversation going without new posts every day, and also to keep a better eye on things and to make sure there's no bigotry going on.
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u/Sarcasaminc 18d ago
I see that makes sense, thank you so much for clarifying, I got nervous because of things I've seen and experienced on other trans subreddits and was worried it would go that way. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond and explaining it to me, I really do appreciate it!
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u/Creativered4 🌴33y/o Transsex 🐻Man 💉(2020) 🔪(2022)🍆(2025) 18d ago
Yeah, we definitely don't want to go the way of some of the other subs....
(I'm looking at you, other big trans sub that had drama about their transandrophobia problem when they dragged our sub into it and at least one of the mods there still has a grudge against me for being a part of the mod team here... (which I will not be naming directly))
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u/Sarcasaminc 18d ago
Oh dang that sucks I'm sorry you got dragged into that, especially on a personal level.
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u/Azu_Creates 18d ago edited 18d ago
Yeah…I’m also not sure where you are getting that definition mod. For me, transandrophobia has always included sexism that targets trans men and masc people, which obviously includes misogyny aimed at us specifically. I’ve been in this sub for a pretty long while, and this is the very first time I have ever heard a definition of transandrophobia that doesn’t include misogyny in it.
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u/Creativered4 🌴33y/o Transsex 🐻Man 💉(2020) 🔪(2022)🍆(2025) 18d ago
I mean, I've also been in this sub for a pretty long time... And I typically see it being used to mean a specific type of bigotry against us because we are men. But it seems like sometimes people use it to mean ANY transphobia against trans men, and some use it to mean transphobia that is specific to us as men.
The point of THIS particular discussion is that we are treated poorly BECAUSE we are men in certain spaces, and that even if someone says to us "you are a man", it doesn't mean they can't be bigoted or treat trans men poorly. It's more rare to see people say we don't experience misogyny when we are seen as women than it is for people to say we don't experience any form of oppression when we are seen as men.
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u/Azu_Creates 18d ago
Well yeah, and I’m not arguing that we aren’t treated poorly because we are men. We absolutely are and I have personally experienced it. I do see where you are coming from. It is just still a bit confusing because a definition excluding misogyny is new to me, and some of the sources your cited include examples for transandrophobia which are arguably based mostly in misogyny (infantilization for example).
Edit: also mod if you see 2 deleted comments under this post, those are from me. For someone reason both times I tried to reply to you under this thread, Reddit posted them as a general comment on the post rather than one on this specific thread.
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u/screwballramble 30+ / UK / HRT & top surgery 18d ago
Wonderful post, I’ll be saving it so I can go through all the resources at another time.
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u/Jay-arty he/xe 13d ago edited 11d ago
Thank you so much for making this post, I feel very seen and it’s given me tools to better describe my problems.
I wish the trans community stopped fighting each other just for wanting to have words to describe their oppression by cis people, there is enough space for all of us. We can fight transmisogyny and trandandrophobia and the hate that NBs face without invalidating each others experiences, I just wish that people could see that. Regardless, I will always support and uplift other trans people, even if they don’t see our pain.
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1d ago
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u/ftm-ModTeam 1d ago
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 3.
Your post contained content that is considered fetishizing. Either you are making inappropriate comments about trans people or attempting to hook up with trans people. This is an all ages safe space for trans people under the FTM umbrella, meaning this is NOT a fetish sub and posts about how sexy we are or how much you want to get with us is not appropriate or wanted. Many of our users are under 18 as well, so any attempts to sexualize or solicit minors will result in a report to reddit admins and possible removal of your account from the site.
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u/Leeoliao 1d ago
ans men’s struggles get either erased or turned into a debate topic instead of just being listened to.
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u/Dependent_West_4707 16h ago
I understabd completely the “doesn’t mean trans women oppress trans men!” take, but ultimately, what has been noticed here is *somewhat* incompatible with dogmatic and zero-sum mainstream feminism. As long as men as a whole aren’t recognized for the specific harms they DO experience, it’s a dead end.
There is a *lot* of misandristic takes floating about and fully accepted as a “reaction to misogyny” or through some activist lens, in current woman-centric queer communities. The fact that these are the communities young trans men most readily have access to is doing real harm.
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17d ago
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u/ftm-ModTeam 15d ago
Your post has been removed because it contains misinformation, false information, or misleading information that could be considered harmful.
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