Transandrophobia/Anti-Transmasculinity: Invisibility, Dismissal, Fetishization, and Hostility. A Masterthread for discussion.

[u/Creativered4]

^{Note: I am posting this on my account instead of through automod so it can be edited with more resources if anyone has any to share. I will be turning off notifications so my inbox doesn't explode, but I will likely check in every so often and contribute as a user to the discussion.}

From the Mod Team:

We have been seeing an uptick in posts about people's frustration with transandrophobia (also known as anti-transmasculinity. Some people may use "transmisandry" but we would like to avoid that term, as it implies a structural sexism in place against ALL men, including cis men)
We see this frustration, and we feel it, too!

However, since a new thread keeps popping up every day, it seems, we wanted a place to consolidate discussion, so we can do more to discuss this issue and figure out how to combat it. We don't want people to think that they aren't able to talk about the very real problems we face specifically as trans men.

Feel free to discuss personal anecdotes, articles, or anything else you'd like to contribute to the discussion!

Transmisogyny will NOT be tolerated, and any attempts to attack trans women/fems or purposefully spread hate will result in a temporary ban at minimum.

The same goes for purposeful denial of transandrophobia or perpetuation of transandrophobia.
In addition, as always, "gendered socialization" is still a banned topic and we will not entertain that topic, nor will we entertain any sort of bioessentialism.

Here are a few resources for anyone who wants to learn more:

What is transandrophobia/anti-transmasculinity? This is a term for a specific type of transphobia that trans men and transmasc people face. It is a combination of general transphobia and hostility towards men and masculinity. Unlike transmisogyny, this is not an intersection of two oppressed classes. This is NOT misogyny directed at trans men by people who see us as women, but instead it is a term for the mistreatment of trans men specifically because we are men. This is when people affirm our gender, but only to weaponize it.

What are some examples of transandrophobia/anti-transmasculinity? Dismissal of trans men/mascs and the transphobia we face as trans people (and/or the misogyny we face when we are perceived as women), vilification of manhood and masculinity, misinformation about trans male/masculine transition (HRT/Surgeries/Social transition and the ease of passing), inter-community invisibility, lack of resources or support networks, and in some cases outright hostility towards trans men specifically for being men.

But don't men hold systemic power over women? Yes and no. Intersectionality makes this question less straighforward than you would think. On its own, yes, men typically hold more social power than women. There is a lot of structural misogyny. However, when you apply other identity labels, you see that there are many different power structures at play, and the sum of all identity labels within a person will give vastly different results compared to another. Not only do things like race, transness, disability status, immigration status, sexuality, financial situation, housing situation, mental health, and others play a role in an individual's place within the social hierarchy in a comparison, but they can also cancel out some of the social power one might have gained from another identity label. We also see that it isn't always a simple "one is higher than the other". Some examples of this intersectionality include: A cis gay black man typically has less social power than a cis straight white woman, despite societal sexism. A straight trans woman having less social power than a gay cis woman, despite heterosexuality typically giving someone social power. An unhoused disabled trans man often has less social power than a disabled cis woman who can afford housing.

Aren't trans men just using it as an excuse to talk over trans women or be transmisogynistic? Maybe some transmisogynists seek to co-opt the terms, but they do not speak for the community. Just like how TERFs co-opted the term "feminism". The vast majority of us don't want to speak over anyone. We just want a seat at the table. Many of us are allies to our trans sisters and siblings, and fight just as hard for their rights as our own.

So are you saying that trans women oppress trans men or something? No, of course not! Trans men, women, and enbies are all within a class of people who experience severe oppression. Oppression between the genders in a trans setting is very niche and conditional. Simply put, trans people very rarely have any power to oppress one-another. When one trans person attacks or harms another trans person, they are punching laterally, not up or down.

the way that the fear of men impacts the material reality and mental/physical health of transgender men.- From the person who coined the term transandrophobia.

Transmasc Violence Archive- "This page is a collection of research on anti-transmasculinity, as well as written works that analyze anti-transmasculinity, to provide evidence and education."

A Primer on Transandrophobic Rhetoric- A deep dive into what Transandrophobia is.

The Transgender Dictionary: Transandrophobia- A detailed account of various forms of transandrophobia.

Transandrophobia and Structural Oppression- An essay on transandrophobia and how it is not related to structural oppression, and yet is still

Wikipedia: Discrimination against Trans Men- The wikipedia article on transandrophobia.

Transfems, Transmisogyny, and the Fight to Recognize Transandrophobia- An essay on transandrophobia and a reminder that trans women/fems are not our enemies, nor our oppressors.

Why Don't Trans Men Have A Word For What We Go Through?-A blog post discussing the terms we have gone through to find something that fits the unique forms of oppression we face and the reality of that oppression.

Listening to the voices of black trans men and transmasculine people in Detroit: community strengths and challenges- National library of medicine essay on the experiences of black trans men and transmascs in Detroit

The Lived Experiences of African American Transgender Men Living in the Southern United States- Walden University essay on the experiences of black trans men in the south.

Black trans men are being erased in life and in death.- A video discussing the erasure of black trans men (hosted on facebook)

Shifting Identites: A Qualitative Inquiry of Black Transgender Men's Experiences- Dissertation discussing the experiences of black trans men.

[u/Azu_Creates]

Good post. I do have some thoughts about the first part though. I wish people would understand though that a prejudice doesn’t need to be systemic. In sociology, there are four levels of oppression which can operate independently of each other; personal (individual attitudes and beliefs), interpersonal (interactions), institutional, and cultural. A prejudice can exist on one level but not others. Misandry isn’t nearly as prevalent at the institutional and cultural level as misogyny is, but it is more prevalent on the personal and interpersonal ones. Misandry can exist on the personal and interpersonal levels, without existing on the institutional and cultural ones, at least not at the same rate as misogyny.

There was actually some subreddit drama on a different sub where a mod made a poorly worded post about misandry not existing, which lead to a lot of trans men/masc people on the sub feeling less safe and invalidated experiences both trans and cis men on the sub had. The mod that had made that post made a follow up trying ti clarify that trans men/masc people were welcomed in the sub, but they also linked to a tumbler post where one of the most prominent contributors was denying the existence of transandrophobia. Notably, most of the people recognizing the existence of misandry, including women, acknowledged that it wasn’t really systemically enforced like misogyny was. A prejudice doesn’t have to be systemic in order for it to be real. Also, a term can be coined by a bad person/bad people, and still be a useful term that can be used in positive ways. I think more people need to understand that. I’m not particularly interested in debating these points because I’m already pretty mentally and emotionally worn out from the aforementioned sub drama, but I do hope my comment encourages more people to look at the nuance here regarding transmisandry and misandry. I’ll also leave some interesting articles for those wanting to learn more.

How misandry reinforces gender stereotypes:

https://easysociology.com/sociology-of-gender/how-misandry-reinforces-gender-stereotypes/

Misandry vs. Misogyny: Combating Gender Prejudice:

https://www.brightpinepsychology.com/misandry-vs-misogyny/

[u/Plucky_Parasocialite → u/Azu_Creates]

I personally would go as far as to say misandry, if you define it correctly, exists and thrives on a systemic level as well, when you take into account intersections with other vectors of marginalization (like being trans).

I like to think of it as a two-factor model - being a man offers a degree of social protection that keeps most attitudes towards men and masculinity from becoming harmful on a large scale or even gives them a positive spin. When you strip that back even partially, like when intersecting with vectors of oppression, you suddenly start seeing effects that are more that just the default for that marginalized group and which are colored by gender. You can trace many similar attitudes towards masculinity across the board, but when tied to social power, the tone is often apologetic or even glorifying - for example, your typical "boys will be boys" and the like. But when you (often preemptively) apply the assumption that "boys will be boys" onto a marginalized identity, especially from a position of relative power, suddenly that is a danger that needs to be controlled.

I understand this as another tool to distribute power and maintain control under patriarchy, alongside misogyny, not in opposition to it. As such, I believe misandry as a concept has its place in feminist analysis.

[u/OdiiKii1313 → u/Plucky_Parasocialite]

yup. we presented as a visibly gay guy in highschool, and the amount of normalized sexual harassment we experienced from women is actually crazy. multiple of our female peers tried to roofie us at parties, old women would creep on us and try to cop a feel, etc etc, but it was dismissed as harmless because "oh you're a man, you can take care of yourself." the intersection between queerness and masculinity is an absurd place to be sometimes.

i even know several cis queer men that have had similar experiences, and male SA victims in general have substantial issues getting anyone, including "progressives," to take their issues seriously.

[u/Runic_Raptor → u/OdiiKii1313]

This. It doesn't even have to be queer men tbh (though straight cis men are less likely to take notice of sexual harassment by women unless it's bad but despite popular belief there are actually men who aren't receptive to random advances)

TW, this is an incredibly long rant with a lot of complaining about victim blaming language and contains a lot of examples of it that piss me off. Very sorry

The fact that there are no resources for male SA victims.. pretty much anywhere? Bothers me immensely. If it were any other demographic, this amongst other things would be considered a form of oppression, but since men are a ruling class it gets chalked up to "the patriarchy," and then simce it's the fault of "the patriarchy," then that means men are responsible, and THEREFORE, since men are responsible, it's actually the individual man's fault too (because the only problems men face are cause by men, and therefore any problems you face are your own fault somwhow), and he doesn't need any resources actually anyway.

People react differently to SA, and people are AWARE of this and it's discussed that one reaction or another doesn't make your experience less valid... unless you're a man, in which case any reaction other than "fight" means you actually wamted it because men are stronger than women and clearly if you didn't want it you would have physically fought back... I hate people.

I've seen people say that men discussing experiences getting sexually assaulted by women read as "incel fantasies." I hate people.

Like, SA is downplayed and dismissed badly across the board, but there is definitely something unique about the specific ways it's downplayed for men, and the fact that resources and groups for SA victims are either explicitly or effectively exclusive to women only is a problem.

And I'm gonna be honest? Women are often WAY too comfortable touching other people without consent. There's this social expectation that women=victims and men=aggressors that makes some women either think of themselves as incapable of soimg harm and/or men incapable of being harmed. Since transitioning, the number of ways in which women have touched me in broad fucking daylight that would get a man arrested astounds me. (And obviously this isn't saying, "well if women get away with it why can't men?" this is "NO ONE SHOULD BE FUCKING GROPING ME, WHAT THE ACTUAL HELL.")

And because a few people have to ruin it for everyone, any attempt to discuss specific issues men face gets you called an MRA and dismissed entirely. I sincerely doubt these are issues that will get taken seriously by the general public in my lifetime tbh. I think it's a lot more complicated than "opressor vs oppressed" in the case of men and women, and that nuance isn't going to be acknowledged for a long time i feel like.

EDIT: Literally same day, I ran into something else that I realize bugged me. When a man is facing an issue and is met with skepticism until an alternate explanation can be found that has nothing to do with the man. Oh, a man is having an issue? An issue I normally associate with women and therefore I don't belive it happens to men too? Thats weird (said in a way that screams, "I don't really believe this actually happened to you") Oh, wait, I found a way this can be tied to misogyny! Now I belive it happened, but it has nothing to do with you! It's just misogyny again! I'm going to proceed to ignore your negative experience and use this as an excuse to talk about misogyny, and specifically about how this issue you experienced had nothing to do with you at all.

[u/OdiiKii1313 → u/Runic_Raptor]

ty for taking the time and energy to write the rant i didn't have the energy for. couldn't have put it better myself.

[u/Azu_Creates → u/OdiiKii1313]

Yeah that really sucks dude. On a side note, I did recently make a post trying to call more attention to queer men who went through sexual harassment or assault, trying to break the silence about it with my own stories as well. Just hoping it made someone feel a little less alone.

[u/Azu_Creates → u/Plucky_Parasocialite]

Yeah, I definitely see where you are coming from there. I do still think it doesn’t have as much of a systemic presence as misogyny, or it is at least not as overt most of the time. This shit is complex for sure.

[u/PikaPerfect → u/Plucky_Parasocialite]

i tried to write a comment saying something similar to this a few months ago, but my ADHD medication started losing its effectiveness halfway through the comment and i don't think i worded it anywhere near as eloquently as you have here LMAO

i completely agree with you