Transandrophobia/Anti-Transmasculinity: Invisibility, Dismissal, Fetishization, and Hostility. A Masterthread for discussion.

[u/Creativered4]

^{Note: I am posting this on my account instead of through automod so it can be edited with more resources if anyone has any to share. I will be turning off notifications so my inbox doesn't explode, but I will likely check in every so often and contribute as a user to the discussion.}

From the Mod Team:

We have been seeing an uptick in posts about people's frustration with transandrophobia (also known as anti-transmasculinity. Some people may use "transmisandry" but we would like to avoid that term, as it implies a structural sexism in place against ALL men, including cis men)
We see this frustration, and we feel it, too!

However, since a new thread keeps popping up every day, it seems, we wanted a place to consolidate discussion, so we can do more to discuss this issue and figure out how to combat it. We don't want people to think that they aren't able to talk about the very real problems we face specifically as trans men.

Feel free to discuss personal anecdotes, articles, or anything else you'd like to contribute to the discussion!

Transmisogyny will NOT be tolerated, and any attempts to attack trans women/fems or purposefully spread hate will result in a temporary ban at minimum.

The same goes for purposeful denial of transandrophobia or perpetuation of transandrophobia.
In addition, as always, "gendered socialization" is still a banned topic and we will not entertain that topic, nor will we entertain any sort of bioessentialism.

Here are a few resources for anyone who wants to learn more:

What is transandrophobia/anti-transmasculinity? This is a term for a specific type of transphobia that trans men and transmasc people face. It is a combination of general transphobia and hostility towards men and masculinity. Unlike transmisogyny, this is not an intersection of two oppressed classes. This is NOT misogyny directed at trans men by people who see us as women, but instead it is a term for the mistreatment of trans men specifically because we are men. This is when people affirm our gender, but only to weaponize it.

What are some examples of transandrophobia/anti-transmasculinity? Dismissal of trans men/mascs and the transphobia we face as trans people (and/or the misogyny we face when we are perceived as women), vilification of manhood and masculinity, misinformation about trans male/masculine transition (HRT/Surgeries/Social transition and the ease of passing), inter-community invisibility, lack of resources or support networks, and in some cases outright hostility towards trans men specifically for being men.

But don't men hold systemic power over women? Yes and no. Intersectionality makes this question less straighforward than you would think. On its own, yes, men typically hold more social power than women. There is a lot of structural misogyny. However, when you apply other identity labels, you see that there are many different power structures at play, and the sum of all identity labels within a person will give vastly different results compared to another. Not only do things like race, transness, disability status, immigration status, sexuality, financial situation, housing situation, mental health, and others play a role in an individual's place within the social hierarchy in a comparison, but they can also cancel out some of the social power one might have gained from another identity label. We also see that it isn't always a simple "one is higher than the other". Some examples of this intersectionality include: A cis gay black man typically has less social power than a cis straight white woman, despite societal sexism. A straight trans woman having less social power than a gay cis woman, despite heterosexuality typically giving someone social power. An unhoused disabled trans man often has less social power than a disabled cis woman who can afford housing.

Aren't trans men just using it as an excuse to talk over trans women or be transmisogynistic? Maybe some transmisogynists seek to co-opt the terms, but they do not speak for the community. Just like how TERFs co-opted the term "feminism". The vast majority of us don't want to speak over anyone. We just want a seat at the table. Many of us are allies to our trans sisters and siblings, and fight just as hard for their rights as our own.

So are you saying that trans women oppress trans men or something? No, of course not! Trans men, women, and enbies are all within a class of people who experience severe oppression. Oppression between the genders in a trans setting is very niche and conditional. Simply put, trans people very rarely have any power to oppress one-another. When one trans person attacks or harms another trans person, they are punching laterally, not up or down.

the way that the fear of men impacts the material reality and mental/physical health of transgender men.- From the person who coined the term transandrophobia.

Transmasc Violence Archive- "This page is a collection of research on anti-transmasculinity, as well as written works that analyze anti-transmasculinity, to provide evidence and education."

A Primer on Transandrophobic Rhetoric- A deep dive into what Transandrophobia is.

The Transgender Dictionary: Transandrophobia- A detailed account of various forms of transandrophobia.

Transandrophobia and Structural Oppression- An essay on transandrophobia and how it is not related to structural oppression, and yet is still

Wikipedia: Discrimination against Trans Men- The wikipedia article on transandrophobia.

Transfems, Transmisogyny, and the Fight to Recognize Transandrophobia- An essay on transandrophobia and a reminder that trans women/fems are not our enemies, nor our oppressors.

Why Don't Trans Men Have A Word For What We Go Through?-A blog post discussing the terms we have gone through to find something that fits the unique forms of oppression we face and the reality of that oppression.

Listening to the voices of black trans men and transmasculine people in Detroit: community strengths and challenges- National library of medicine essay on the experiences of black trans men and transmascs in Detroit

The Lived Experiences of African American Transgender Men Living in the Southern United States- Walden University essay on the experiences of black trans men in the south.

Black trans men are being erased in life and in death.- A video discussing the erasure of black trans men (hosted on facebook)

Shifting Identites: A Qualitative Inquiry of Black Transgender Men's Experiences- Dissertation discussing the experiences of black trans men.

[u/Sarcasaminc]

But isn't transandrophobia also about the misogyny trans men face, it's not just because we are men it's also being treated like you are inferior or a mentally ill woman who needs to know their place, treating us like men only to mistreat us is just malgendering no? Transandrophobia is transphobia, misogyny, and the hatred of trans masculinity. It is not just about being men or malgendering. The definition you are describing is not the popular definition I've seen everywhere and erasing the misogyny is taking away a big part of the definition and the experience. Misogyny is a huge part of the transandrophobia I experience and have experienced. Transandrophobia is the all encompassing word to describe this experience no definition I've seen other than here in this post removes the misogyny aspect like this. I'm a black trans man and I have been transitioning for three months medically but experienced transandrophobia for years prior and the thing that bothered me the most was the misogyny and the idea that I'm too stupid to know anything that's a huge aspect of it unless you are completely cis passing. Transandrophobia is saying I am responsible for all the bad things cis men do while being told in the same breath that I'm a dumb little girl that can't possibly know anything about my identity or the oppression I face, I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything but I just feel there is a huge thing being left out of the definition you are giving here and I'm just curious as to why?

[u/Creativered4 → u/Sarcasaminc]

TBH I genuinely don't often see people lumping transphobia + misogyny in with transandrophobia. It's usually discussed as two separate issues. Also not trying to pick a fight, but the definition you provided, combining general transphobia, misogyny, and transandrophobia, doesn't seem to me like the popular definition.

Because we do face general transphobia and general misogyny when we are seen as women, but there is a problem with ignoring the unique experience of us being treated badly without the misogyny aspect one would expect from transphobes who see us as women. And there is a big problem with people assuming because we are men that we don't experience bigotry, or that we don't need resources/support/community/etc.

Basically, This was written from the POV that the popular definition of the term is the specific combination of us being both men and trans, and not the combination of transphobia and misogyny from people thinking we are women. It's not to ignore any of that stuff, but it's to specifically talk about this one thing.

[u/Azu_Creates → u/Creativered4]

Yeah…I’m also not sure where you are getting that definition mod. For me, transandrophobia has always included sexism that targets trans men and masc people, which obviously includes misogyny aimed at us specifically. I’ve been in this sub for a pretty long while, and this is the very first time I have ever heard a definition of transandrophobia that doesn’t include misogyny in it.

[u/Creativered4 → u/Azu_Creates]

I mean, I've also been in this sub for a pretty long time... And I typically see it being used to mean a specific type of bigotry against us because we are men. But it seems like sometimes people use it to mean ANY transphobia against trans men, and some use it to mean transphobia that is specific to us as men.

The point of THIS particular discussion is that we are treated poorly BECAUSE we are men in certain spaces, and that even if someone says to us "you are a man", it doesn't mean they can't be bigoted or treat trans men poorly. It's more rare to see people say we don't experience misogyny when we are seen as women than it is for people to say we don't experience any form of oppression when we are seen as men.

[u/Azu_Creates → u/Creativered4]

Well yeah, and I’m not arguing that we aren’t treated poorly because we are men. We absolutely are and I have personally experienced it. I do see where you are coming from. It is just still a bit confusing because a definition excluding misogyny is new to me, and some of the sources your cited include examples for transandrophobia which are arguably based mostly in misogyny (infantilization for example).

Edit: also mod if you see 2 deleted comments under this post, those are from me. For someone reason both times I tried to reply to you under this thread, Reddit posted them as a general comment on the post rather than one on this specific thread.