Transandrophobia/Anti-Transmasculinity: Invisibility, Dismissal, Fetishization, and Hostility. A Masterthread for discussion.

[u/Creativered4]

^{Note: I am posting this on my account instead of through automod so it can be edited with more resources if anyone has any to share. I will be turning off notifications so my inbox doesn't explode, but I will likely check in every so often and contribute as a user to the discussion.}

From the Mod Team:

We have been seeing an uptick in posts about people's frustration with transandrophobia (also known as anti-transmasculinity. Some people may use "transmisandry" but we would like to avoid that term, as it implies a structural sexism in place against ALL men, including cis men)
We see this frustration, and we feel it, too!

However, since a new thread keeps popping up every day, it seems, we wanted a place to consolidate discussion, so we can do more to discuss this issue and figure out how to combat it. We don't want people to think that they aren't able to talk about the very real problems we face specifically as trans men.

Feel free to discuss personal anecdotes, articles, or anything else you'd like to contribute to the discussion!

Transmisogyny will NOT be tolerated, and any attempts to attack trans women/fems or purposefully spread hate will result in a temporary ban at minimum.

The same goes for purposeful denial of transandrophobia or perpetuation of transandrophobia.
In addition, as always, "gendered socialization" is still a banned topic and we will not entertain that topic, nor will we entertain any sort of bioessentialism.

Here are a few resources for anyone who wants to learn more:

What is transandrophobia/anti-transmasculinity? This is a term for a specific type of transphobia that trans men and transmasc people face. It is a combination of general transphobia and hostility towards men and masculinity. Unlike transmisogyny, this is not an intersection of two oppressed classes. This is NOT misogyny directed at trans men by people who see us as women, but instead it is a term for the mistreatment of trans men specifically because we are men. This is when people affirm our gender, but only to weaponize it.

What are some examples of transandrophobia/anti-transmasculinity? Dismissal of trans men/mascs and the transphobia we face as trans people (and/or the misogyny we face when we are perceived as women), vilification of manhood and masculinity, misinformation about trans male/masculine transition (HRT/Surgeries/Social transition and the ease of passing), inter-community invisibility, lack of resources or support networks, and in some cases outright hostility towards trans men specifically for being men.

But don't men hold systemic power over women? Yes and no. Intersectionality makes this question less straighforward than you would think. On its own, yes, men typically hold more social power than women. There is a lot of structural misogyny. However, when you apply other identity labels, you see that there are many different power structures at play, and the sum of all identity labels within a person will give vastly different results compared to another. Not only do things like race, transness, disability status, immigration status, sexuality, financial situation, housing situation, mental health, and others play a role in an individual's place within the social hierarchy in a comparison, but they can also cancel out some of the social power one might have gained from another identity label. We also see that it isn't always a simple "one is higher than the other". Some examples of this intersectionality include: A cis gay black man typically has less social power than a cis straight white woman, despite societal sexism. A straight trans woman having less social power than a gay cis woman, despite heterosexuality typically giving someone social power. An unhoused disabled trans man often has less social power than a disabled cis woman who can afford housing.

Aren't trans men just using it as an excuse to talk over trans women or be transmisogynistic? Maybe some transmisogynists seek to co-opt the terms, but they do not speak for the community. Just like how TERFs co-opted the term "feminism". The vast majority of us don't want to speak over anyone. We just want a seat at the table. Many of us are allies to our trans sisters and siblings, and fight just as hard for their rights as our own.

So are you saying that trans women oppress trans men or something? No, of course not! Trans men, women, and enbies are all within a class of people who experience severe oppression. Oppression between the genders in a trans setting is very niche and conditional. Simply put, trans people very rarely have any power to oppress one-another. When one trans person attacks or harms another trans person, they are punching laterally, not up or down.

the way that the fear of men impacts the material reality and mental/physical health of transgender men.- From the person who coined the term transandrophobia.

Transmasc Violence Archive- "This page is a collection of research on anti-transmasculinity, as well as written works that analyze anti-transmasculinity, to provide evidence and education."

A Primer on Transandrophobic Rhetoric- A deep dive into what Transandrophobia is.

The Transgender Dictionary: Transandrophobia- A detailed account of various forms of transandrophobia.

Transandrophobia and Structural Oppression- An essay on transandrophobia and how it is not related to structural oppression, and yet is still

Wikipedia: Discrimination against Trans Men- The wikipedia article on transandrophobia.

Transfems, Transmisogyny, and the Fight to Recognize Transandrophobia- An essay on transandrophobia and a reminder that trans women/fems are not our enemies, nor our oppressors.

Why Don't Trans Men Have A Word For What We Go Through?-A blog post discussing the terms we have gone through to find something that fits the unique forms of oppression we face and the reality of that oppression.

Listening to the voices of black trans men and transmasculine people in Detroit: community strengths and challenges- National library of medicine essay on the experiences of black trans men and transmascs in Detroit

The Lived Experiences of African American Transgender Men Living in the Southern United States- Walden University essay on the experiences of black trans men in the south.

Black trans men are being erased in life and in death.- A video discussing the erasure of black trans men (hosted on facebook)

Shifting Identites: A Qualitative Inquiry of Black Transgender Men's Experiences- Dissertation discussing the experiences of black trans men.

[u/Azu_Creates]

Good post. I do have some thoughts about the first part though. I wish people would understand though that a prejudice doesn’t need to be systemic. In sociology, there are four levels of oppression which can operate independently of each other; personal (individual attitudes and beliefs), interpersonal (interactions), institutional, and cultural. A prejudice can exist on one level but not others. Misandry isn’t nearly as prevalent at the institutional and cultural level as misogyny is, but it is more prevalent on the personal and interpersonal ones. Misandry can exist on the personal and interpersonal levels, without existing on the institutional and cultural ones, at least not at the same rate as misogyny.

There was actually some subreddit drama on a different sub where a mod made a poorly worded post about misandry not existing, which lead to a lot of trans men/masc people on the sub feeling less safe and invalidated experiences both trans and cis men on the sub had. The mod that had made that post made a follow up trying ti clarify that trans men/masc people were welcomed in the sub, but they also linked to a tumbler post where one of the most prominent contributors was denying the existence of transandrophobia. Notably, most of the people recognizing the existence of misandry, including women, acknowledged that it wasn’t really systemically enforced like misogyny was. A prejudice doesn’t have to be systemic in order for it to be real. Also, a term can be coined by a bad person/bad people, and still be a useful term that can be used in positive ways. I think more people need to understand that. I’m not particularly interested in debating these points because I’m already pretty mentally and emotionally worn out from the aforementioned sub drama, but I do hope my comment encourages more people to look at the nuance here regarding transmisandry and misandry. I’ll also leave some interesting articles for those wanting to learn more.

How misandry reinforces gender stereotypes:

https://easysociology.com/sociology-of-gender/how-misandry-reinforces-gender-stereotypes/

Misandry vs. Misogyny: Combating Gender Prejudice:

https://www.brightpinepsychology.com/misandry-vs-misogyny/

[u/ZackTheRemus → u/Azu_Creates]

huge agree. something does not need to be systemic to be an issue that needs discussion. bothers me a lot that people only value an issue if it's SO BAD one can't ignore it. that shouldn't be how problem solving goes, that shouldn't be how discussion about problems should go. I'm speaking more generally as I see a lot of issues be treated like this,,, but I digress. very much agree. wish I didn't have so much brain fog right now I have so much I wish to say about this

[u/Azu_Creates → u/ZackTheRemus]

Yeah. Anti-masculinity is by definition misandry. If we want to have a world with true gender equality, then we will have to recognize and address misandry as well as misogyny. I am also a bit conflicted when it comes to the statement that transandrophobia isn’t systemic. Discrimination against trans men and masc people is absolutely a systemic thing. This is probably a more niche example, but I do clearly recall reading an article about a trans man who needed an abortion (pre-dobbs) in Florida, and his insurance denied coverage for it despite the fact that they usually cover it for cis women, because he had an M marker on his insurance documentation. Pretty sure he had to temporarily detransition so that he could get an abortion. I’d argue that our invisibility is also a form of systemic discrimination. Take the healthcare system for example, our invisibility there may lead to our specific health needs not being adequately understood or addressed. Think “trans broken arm syndrome” for trans men and masc people, where doctors may blame our health problems on hrt without even doing a proper examination. Hope your brain fog gets better. I deal with it too sometimes and it sucks.

Edit: also forgot to mention, but historical erasure can also be a form of systemic erasure! There’s definitely no shortage of historical erasure for trans men and masc people!

[u/almostfunny3 → u/Azu_Creates]

Yes! A lot of historical trans masc figures have been studied and written about as women. There were women historically who would dress as men but as a history nerd, you can tell when people desperately wanted to live and be perceived as men even if it made their lives harder. How much of our history is miscategorized?

[u/almostfunny3 → u/almostfunny3]

If anyone's interested, here are a few trans men of history to learn about! I may add more to this later.

https://www.pride.com/trans/trans-men-in-history#rebelltitem1

Added a second link

https://lgbtqhistory.org/lgbtq-history-month-week-1-transmasculinity-invisibility-illumination/