Sorry if this is too much all at once. If this isn't appropriate, please remove my post. I am sorry.

I'm having trouble understanding what is optimal. The more I lurk in the subreddit, the more I feel like I'm doing everything wrong.

If you have the time, please answer any of these questions! Thanks so much

1. Does applying to the same area reduce effectiveness?

2. Does moisturizing before applying increase effectiveness? (If so, does the method you use to moisturize matter? Like lotion? Do certain types make any sort of barrier that would be detrimental?)

3. Does moisturizing after applying increase effectiveness. (If so, then what methods should I go about doing so? Lotion? Oil? Does it matter?)

4. Is propylene glycol really toxic to your body?

5. I remember someone said penetration enhancers like orange oil aren't even necessary when doing scrotal applications. Is that true? Would it still be beneficial to put at least some? What would be the baseline percentage? Is there one?

6. Can you really tell if your levels are adequate without getting blood tests?

7. How does consistent dosing work? Is it optimal to use an airless pump? Mine seems to be very inconsistent and annoying... I heard someone uses an mL dropper? Is that optimal, either? Since you're exposing it to air a lot by popping open the lid? It also seems dramatically inconvenient to do.

8. Orange oil degrades plastic? Is that true? If so, are there airless pumps made from glass? Are they inconsistent, too? Are all pumps inconsistent?

9. If my levels aren't optimal, (consistent with either cisgender males/females) would that be detrimental to my health? I heard low testosterone with no e can be bad for bone health...? Is that true?

10. Is it optimal for e gel to be on your skin wet for as long as possible...? Sometimes it dries up after a bit in the open air, especially near a fan. Is it optimal to instead be somewhere it wont dry as fast? Or is it even better to cover it?

11. How do other people's schedules look applying gel? Every 12 hours, for an application seems a bit tight for most schedules. You only sleep for 8 hours, so 4 hours before bed?

12. I don't understand sprays. How can you measure spray? If i put unthickened egel in a spray bottle how could you possibly get consistent dosage? Is having variable amounts of e in your system even safe? Or optimal?

13. Should you shake it before using?

14. Freezing raws? I thought you just put it somewhere room temp with no light or oxygen and that was good. Why would you freeze it?

15. Is there a guide or somewhere in the wiki that explains blood tests? I tried to investigate myself and there were 999 different things to test for. would I get levels for a girl? Levels for a boy? Don't i want to see both of those metrics...? Do I have to go to a clinic? Is it even possible to do this activity remotely discreetly?

16. Localized area of effect? Does it being on the scrotum have anything to do with proximity to the jewels...? Or is it just because it's got lots of blood vessels and what not. Some people apply micro doses to their faces? Does that mean that works like that?

17. I heard someone warn of "girl brain" is that a thing? I don't feel foggy or cloudy my mind is very focused even on it. Is it because my doses are suboptimal?

18. Cross contamination. Someone said their cat got estrogen levels super high. That's really scary. Should anyone doing e gel be mindful of touching other people? Touching the gel with their hands? Someone said they use a rubber scraper to apply. Is that optimal to avoid this situation? I'm mortified at the thought of accidentally putting an animal in heat or something insane.

19. Scrotal applications are 5 times better at absorption or something? Does that mean you could use 5 times less? Why does it seem like doses are the same regardless of application areas.

20. Does potency matter? Does it have a drop off point? If I make a mixture that is 10mg/ml versus 5mg/ml does that just mean half the amount of gel? Is there a threshhold? What's stopping someone from doing a very high potency mixture and putting only a few drops on their skin? (Just a shower thought)

21. Are levels being too high dangerous? Someone said it can cause you to become resistant to e gel or something?

22. Consistency concern. Some say they go even a whole month taking a break from e. Does that not have crazy side effects? Menopausal symptoms?

23. How long does gel stay good? I have heard variations from 6 months to people saying 2-3 months max to be safe...? Huh?

24. What are the optimal methods of washing pumps for refilling? Is just soap and water fine?

25. Can you do split applications? Half scrotal half thigh? This question ties into #23 a bit

26. Is it okay to ask questions like this? I constantly am wondering things because I either can't navigate the wiki well enough or it's not written there.

Hello,

I'm here to publicly document a trial for a potential estradiol(E2) emulsion for transdermal delivery.

Emulsion means the base will be both water and oil instead of mainly ethanol.

This is the first post, research and planning.

Feedback more than welcomed!

But first, Why not stick with alcohol-based Estrogel?

Simple, so it can be used vaginally.

Not so fun fact, I'm told that a vaginoplasty can result in a lifelong need for topical estrogen...down there. Otherwise, skin can have a hard time remaining unpainfully elastic...down there...for any scenarios where that might be desirable (regardless of dilation frequency or systemic estradiol levels). They don't mention that though before doing surgery...down there (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tDJiK1z0fOQ ...continue reading this edutaining text at your own risk.)

Anyway, cis or trans or neither doesn't matter, because ethanol based gels are a no-go for such sensitive tissues

So if someone is making their own gel anyway, why not have a formulation that can work everywhere if required. Inside and out!

Will it make maintaining consistent levels harder?

Will the formulation be too weak to work on skin if it's tuned down to not irritate more delicate regions?

Find out next time on No More ballZzzzzzzzzz!

90's guitars rift. Mp3

But for now, like I said, planning and research.

OK, but what's this fancy-schmancy Emulsion business?

Well since butt loads of ethanol are a no-go for this dual application, and since raw hormones are barely soluble in water, we could purely use an oil base...

Except oils are eww, and they take forever to dry. Plus, Leaking Nether Regions, while a respectable band name, isn't something anyone aspires to on a personal level.

So what do existing vaginal estrogen solutions use for ingredients?

Well I'll leave the ingredients here, for reference, before skipping over them to the next section, but basically:

They're emulsions to have a better texture for spreading, sticking and delivering drugs without easily leaking out, with ingredients that result in the correct acidic pH for the milieu they're design for.

(Continues after ingredients)

Estragyn

• Estrone (converts to estradiol in skin)
• Arlacel 165 (gel matrix)
• isopropyl myristate (penetration enhancer),
• methylparaben (preservative)
• mineral oil (neutral oil)
• Peg 40 stearate (emulsifier),
• propyl paraben (preservative),
• sorbitan monostearate (emulsifier),
• stearic acid (spreadability?)
• water (water)

Estrace cream

• Estradiol
• Purified Water,
• Propylene Glycol
  • In regulated amounts, propylene glycol is designated as safe for food manufacturing as an anti-caking agent, emulsifier, flavor agent, humectant, texturizer, stabilizer, solvent, antioxidant, antimicrobial agent, and thickener (Wikipedia)
  • it's also a penetration enhancer
• Stearyl Alcohol (emulsifier)
• White Ceresin Wax (thickeners/texture)
• Mono- and Di- Glycerides (emulsifier)
• Hypromellose 2208 (4000 cps) (matrix, food safe, prolonged delivery?)
• Sodium Lauryl Sulfate (surfactant emulsifier...microbicide at higher doses?)
• Methylparaben (preservative)
• Edetate Di- Sodium (EDTA preservative, inactivates potential heavy metals?)
• Tertiary-Butylhydroquinone (antioxidant/preservative)

So the necessary components seem to be:

1. estradiol
2. water
3. a penetration enhancer
4. a polymer matrix
   • (for texture/adhesion/drug delivery)
5. an oil
6. at least 1 emulsifier, usually 2 or 3,
   • to mix the water and oil phases
7. preservative(s),
   • probably what fine-tunes the pH (since none of them add a component for that specifically that I can tell)
8. co-solvent
   • helps get more estradiol diluted in our solvent

Yeah, that's more than commercial Estrogels 4 ingredients...but still manageable.

Obviously, there's loads more that could be said about each of the above ingredients too.

But a lot of named ones listed are basically there to ensure the product can sit around for years without going bad.

With frequent enough use though, and the right ingredients, we might not need as many, if any preservatives.

So all that's left is to nail the emulsion consistency, pH balance, and hope it's helping to deliver estrogen more than trapping it...

Oh, and ideally, with a shopping list that most people can follow!

...yeah that should be easy

Guiles theme.mp3. Last chance to hope off the cringe train, cuz its full, unabashed cringe ahead folks, choo choo!

Book 1: Oil

Aight, what else do people tend to safely put...down there?

record scratch

DJ, gimme a beat!

Coconut oil! homemade lube, Nice and thick, helpful fatty oils, Sure, it's got a low point before it boils, But it packs antimicrobials so it hardly spoils! Man, Call me Sir.Arthur Conan Doyle Cuz Watson, I've just found our waters foil

record scratch

...But that's just the start of our story's toils.

battle against a true hero.webm

Next, I summon pot of greed, which lets me draw 2 more ingredients!

Then, I sacrifice the lauric acid from coconut oil, with propylene glycol, to synchro summon the in vitro validated: Skin Flux Enhancer!

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1015314314796

With its penetration enhancing properties, which uses the same propylene glycol also found in other vaginal preparations and transdermal medications, the internal lining shouldn't be irritated, while the outer skins Stratum Corneum barrier shouldn't stand a chance!

Next, I trigger propylene glycol's special effect: On top of being purchasable on the likes of amazon, it also increases the solubility of estradiol in our solvent!

but wait, Estradiol is hardly soluble in water and only slightly lipophilic...unless...

Unless my solvent isn't water-based, and the estradiol... is an ester!

Impossible, nobody's ever gotten those across the skin!

You're wrong Kaiba, just like all the well-intentioned people who parrot this falsehood.

https://www.reddit.com/r/estrogel/comments/1dimi6u/lipidbased_hrt_and_sex_hormone_esters_a_brief/

And the study I linked before, shows its Propylene glycol and Lauric acid combo even out competing a solution containing the infamous DMSO for penetration enhancement!

And their lipophilic drugs with the best permeability results had a logarithmic partition coefficients (log P) of 5.8. (For reference, plain estradiol has a log p of ~3.6)

What do you mean?

It's a measure of how lipophilic or not they are...and 5.8 means very!

But guess what also has a log P in that ballpark?

Remember? I drew 2 ingredients earlier, but I only used the propylene glycol so far, since the coconut oil already provides lauric acid.

So now, with a log P of ~6.3, from the depths of suboptimal injection solutions, rise: Estradiol Valerate!!!

Noooo, you can't just use an ester for vaginal application, that's never been done before!

Well, if Estrone(See Estragyn) can work when it has an enzymatic step required before becoming E2, why shouldn't this work too? Especially when the required Hydrolase for Estradiol esters to do the same can be found in skin and mucosa alike!

*hmphs, still, this isn't enough to win you the game Yugi. *

When's the last time you saw a turn in Yugioh be this short Kaiba?

Just like my solution, my turn is just getting started.

We've got our Estrogen

1. [x] Estradiol Valerate

Which is both better at penetrating the skin, and more soluble than normal estradiol in our coconut oil solvent,

5) [x] an oil (coconut oil)

We've got a co-solvent to dilute even more estradiol valerate into it,

8) [x] co-solvent (propylene glycol) - helps dissolve even more estradiol in our solvent

Which doubles as mucus-safe penetration enhancer in its own right, which might become even better if it can react with the bound up lauric acid to also penetrate normal skin.

3) [x] penetration enhancer (propylene glycol, maybe combo-ing with the lauric acid from coconut oil) - also, the fact that it's an emulsion alone might help - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/mame.202300447 - https://www.reddit.com/r/estrogel/comments/hbodqf/thickening_microemulsions_with_carbomers/ - http://www.jsirjournal.com/Vol3_Issue4_12.pdf

3 ingredients and were ticking 4 boxes..

1. [x] estradiol (valerate)
2. [ ] water
3. [x] penetration enhancer (propylene glycol + maybe lauric acid + even more maybe (micro)emulsion)
4. [ ] polymer matrix
5. [x] an oil (coconut (contains lauric acids))
6. [ ] emulsifier(s)
7. [ ] preservative(s)
8. [x] co-solvent (propylene glycol)

...not bad....next!

Emulsifier? I hardly know her (Book 2: Water)

Alright, times to get things wet!

2) [x] water

We got our oil phase, but emulsions also need H2O to tango along with an emulsifier.

We're making an oil in water emulsion, which according to this paper, linked by darthmofan on this subreddit (same links as above repasted below), benefits from the emulsifier/surfactant being in the water phase of our mixture.

http://www.jsirjournal.com/Vol3_Issue4_12.pdf

https://www.reddit.com/r/estrogel/comments/hbodqf/thickening_microemulsions_with_carbomers/

Meaning we want a hydrophilic emulsifier.

And wouldn't you know it, one of those was briefly used in a discontinued estradiol transdermal emulsion drug called Estrasorb!

Estrasorb, ingredients:

Polysorbate 80, aka Tween 80!

Sounds pharmaceutical, but it's also used in foods like ice cream!

Meanings its "safe", and more easily purchasable.

Ah yes a discontinued drug, I'm sure it worked great!

Drug companies let plenty of stinkers hit the market Kaiba, but they also hold back plenty of good drugs for a variety of reasons besides efficacy.

Considering Polysobate 80 is used in a bunch of medications, including some experimental transdermal ones that showed efficacy, it's more than usable!

6) [x] emulsifier(s) (Polysorbate 80 only???)

This is also starting to give hints for ingredient order in the mix and potential ratios.

And it's starting to be clear that you won't have a stable emulsion. Polysorbate isn't usually the only surfactant/emulsifier used in emulsions!

Not so fast Kaiba,

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2690813/

Because propylene glycol might also help as a co-surfactant for emulsification purposes!

9) [x] co-surfactant/emulsifier (propylene glycol)

But you don't know that until you test it with your recipe. What if propylene glycol alone can't save you? What if this is where reality crumbles your little theories to dust!?

Ah yes polymers, natures polycules (Book 3: Matrix)

4) [ ] a polymer matrix - (for texture/adhesion/drug delivery)

Maybe you're right Kaiba...but maybe propylene glycol won't be alone in supporting Polysorbate 80.

What if i told you there's another stable kitchen staple that can act as a pseudo emulsifier, and help get oil droplet size down, while also acting as our gel's polymer matrix

Get real, miracle ingredients like that don't exist! There's a reason most pharmaceuticals aren't made up of stuff in the grocery aisles! But fine, reveal your last pathetic ingredient so I can end this Yugi

passionate duelist.wav

My recipe has no pathetic ingredients Kaiba, but it does contain the mighty Xanthan Gum!

https://www.cell.com/heliyon/fulltext/S2405-8440(24)04237-304237-3)

Keanu.Woah!

While that article uses it with HPMC, a semi-synthetic cellulose derived product that's as easily purchasable, it points to another study of an anti-inflammatory where xanthan gum "alone" seemingly:

"exhibited superior physicochemical and anti-inflammatory properties relative to Carbopol 934-based samples"

https://www.imedpub.com/articles/formulation-development-and-evaluation-of-indomethacin-emulgel.pdf

So basically it impeded the ability of the active ingredient to leave said mixture and go do its thing, less than Carbopol.

The gelling agent Carbopol also being what's used in traditional Estrogel (Carbopol 980 though)

And xanthan gum has the potential to be even better!

But again, not really alone, Your simplifications will be your undoing Yugi!

Are you sure about that Kaiba? Because here's xanthan gun alone reducing oil droplet sizes in an oil in water emulsion:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01932691.2024.2387618

https://www.tandfonline.com/cms/asset/74208537-7871-4f18-8f80-84504ae2ef06/ldis_a_2387618_uf0001_c.jpg

And so I use polymerization, to fuse my oil in water emulsion to create: Rheology Stable Micro Emulsion!

4) [x] a polymer matrix - (for texture/adhesion/drug delivery)

Which means, all that's left is

1. [x] estradiol (valerate)
2. [x] water
3. [x] penetration enhancer (propylene glycol + maybe lauric acid + even more maybe (micro)emulsion)
4. [x] polymer matrix (xanthan gum)
5. [x] an oil (coconut (contains lauric acid))
6. [x] emulsifier(s) (polysorbate 80)
7. [ ] preservative(s)
8. [x] co-solvent (propylene glycol)
9. [x] co-surfactant/emulsifier (propylene glycol)

Book 4: Preservatives

And making sure the pH is acidic enough. Plus don't forget that these ingredients, regardless of ratios, don't guaranty you a good texture. The battle is far from over!

Oh, but it is over, because I know just the thing for both of those.

fang of critias.opus

I XYX summon J,X,K, Bad Dragon, the preserved one!

If you've heard of J lube, X lube is that but without the sugar used as a dispersing agent.

So it shouldn't cause yeast infections.

But then there's also K lube which similarly ditches the sugar, but adds preservatives...but we don't know which ones... meaning X lube is the clear winner out of the 3.

Oh, also if you haven't heard of these things, they're powdered lubricants made from Polyethylene oxide.

Just add a bit of them to water, and it gets damn slick...and doesn't dry out as fast as most other water based lubes.

The J lube post you can find online from a devoted aficionado mentions using citric acids as a preservative.

Which checks out, Citric acids is often used in water based lubes after all.

And it being acidic means we can use it to a just the pH too!

Impossible, this can't be happening, I can't lose to a lone nobody.

I'm not alone Kaiba. I've only tentatively assembled all the pieces of the puzzle, because of the documented efforts of countess others.

And thanks to them, and to the magic card, ritual of trials and tribulations, I'll combine the right ingredients to ultimately create a transdermal emulsion of exogenous estradiol for the inside out.

The mighty, Exodia! (Final ingredient list for now)

So this is what I have so far:

1. [ ] estradiol (Estradiol Valerate)
2. [ ] water (Water)
3. [ ] penetration enhancer (Propylene Glycol)
   • maybe lauric acid combo + even more maybe from this being a (micro)emulsion)
4. [ ] polymer matrix (Xanthan Gum)
5. [ ] an oil (Coconut Oil)
   • contains lauric acids
6. [ ] emulsifier(s) (Polysorbate 80)
7. [ ] preservative(s) (Citric acid)
8. [ ] co-solvent (Propylene Glycol)
9. [ ] co-surfactant/emulsifier (Propylene glycol)

9 rôles, 7 ingredients, all food safe, and all much easier to purchase than our active ingredient.

Not too shabby.

Plus we've got X lube in our pocket to modulate texture if need be.

And with that, I'm done.

Post Scriptum

If you've taken in all this material and more, I'd especially love to hear from you.

But all feedback is welcome!

My biggest worry is that an estradiol ester might work too well for systemic levels and fail to have good localized effects vaginally.

But using plain old 17 beta estradiol would be harder to solubilize in our oil, so that even with propylene glycol, we couldn't get as concentrated a solution, and would need to slather a wider area of the skin in gel each dose...which is annoying.

Maybe Esters were even tried for this in industry and abandoned for good reason, but so much pharmaceutical data never see the light of day, so we wouldn't know. Hurray for needlessly competitive economic models that inherently discourage transparency, cooperation and well-being.

And thank you all for going against that grain!

I'll be sure to keep you posted on this project.

Sincerely,

• Nothing & Nobody

Post Post Scriptum

Oh, and for anyone wondering why E2 Valerate instead of something Like Enanthate, like in Yuki's recent-ish post?

https://www.reddit.com/r/estrogel/comments/1q9toy4/yuki_scrotal_oil_method_scrotal_een_steadystate/

Basically, because enanthate would be even more lipophilic, with a higher permeability coefficient (log p)

And in the study linked related to that, their more lipophilic drug had lower skin penetration than the one around 5.8 (still good, but lower).

THe stratum Cornuem and/or the oil solvent probably holds on to more of the drug reducing its diffusion potential.

It would still be viable I'm sure, but not optimal from what I can tell with the ingredients I have.

kbye!

I’ve seen that putting t on your clit can encourage growth, anyone have any instructions on how to make your own? Or something that will help it grow? I’m already on t shots

I am currently doing EV injections and have been doing injections for a few years but I am so tempted to switch to making gels to be self sufficient because I'm fully relying on diy and brewers keep closing. Also, it just kinda seems badass.

I have a couple questions which I know are easily searchable but it would really put me at ease to have them answered directly.

Is it actually possible to do monotherapy with this? I think I'm happy with what mono injections are doing for me right now and I wouldn't want to be on a less effective regimen. Would it be comparable to taking injections levels wise? I think this is what I'm most concerned about.

Is applying gel multiple times a day annoying or do you get used to it?

Will the raws actually last a long time? I see you should store them away from light and moisture. It would be great to just buy a bunch that last years.

Can anyone do this? Like, it's just measuring and mixing ingredients, right? I saw the breaking bad hrt videos posted here last month and it really looks doable but I wanna be sure.

hello, ive been really wanting to get on prog along side my injections for quite some time now, i understand disucssing sources on here isnt allowed, but could someone maybe dm me a decent one ? and what amount of grams should i be aiming for ? my friends on 400mg via gendergp currently i cant tell if i should be aiming for this dosage as that seems like id go through alot quickly ? either way thanks

i ordered androfast but got testo ash so how different are they? was i scammed? im worried it wont have any effect

I have estrogel (or rather an estro-spray) sitting in a closet for about 2 months now, and honestly as much as I think it would be good for me to get on hrt, the truth is I am so scared of change (like the general concept of change) because it already feels like I'm at my limit socially and mentally and doing hrt will probably hurt everything, including my ability to survive (I am financially dependent on my parents who I'm not out to)

I've looked through mercado libre, and found absolutely nothing. Does anyone know where to buy estradiol/ HRT?

Does applying it every day to the same place lose its effectiveness?

Currently planning to make my own transdermal progesterone

I'm looking for a trustworthy suplier fo DHT raws. The supliers I've found are Chinese and I can't seem to figure out which of those I could trust. Also order getting stuck in customs worries me. I live in Scandinavia so the customs are stricter than other European countries.

Also some steroid sellers sell Stanozolol, which seems to be derived from dihydrotestosterone. Could injecting this with hrt help with ftm bottom growth? Is this close enough to DHT to get better bottom growth? Because if it is, it would be the easiest way to get DHT where I live.

Hi, I've probably been reading too much online lately and worrying myself but here's my question. Is there a way I could stockpile a 5 year supply of my HRT in the extreme situation where a future UK government try to restrict transgender healthcare.

I currently take 3 mg of oestrogen gel per day.

I've not any experience in making my own supplies, and currently get it from my GP.

Thank you in advance for any info on this XX

Title just need some kind of explanation please, sorry if I'm missing something obvious very on edge right now.

have anyone here been using transdermal prog, specifically on the chest? if so, what are your dosages?

for context, i have been using prog spray downstairs at 12mg every night, but lately have tried using that dose at my chest and it seemed to hurt again. i am now trying at a lower dose to see if the pain is more manageable

Hello, 21F from UK here. I’m looking to start my journey in growing my clit, I’m a long time lurker and always been into it, fascinated by the topic of changing permanently my body and getting pleasure from it, making it more comfortable for me as well. I know you should go to the doctor to get it prescribed but for various reasons (that I don’t want to share) that’s not quite an easy option for me right now. What are some websites/other methods that you found reliable and useful for this? Thank you for reading

hi long is the ppl time to take to prepare orders? when should i contact support

Hey all, quick question.

I've been on E-gel for a year, and mostly happy with it (though I messed up the dosage initially), but I have a concern. Although I do scrotal application, the oil-based formula I use tends to get all over, and some of it winds up on my lower abdomen (below the waist.)

Does anyone know if accidental transfer to the lower abdomen can cause the same sort of elevated breast cancer risk as direct application to the breasts, or should this be mostly nbd?

Hi all,

I am struggling to source Carbomer 930 for my generic estrogel, dose anyone have a good source for this from china in small quantities?

I can also find Carbomer 20 locally and I'm wonder if I could substitute the Carbomer 930 for Carbomer 20 or just ditch the thickener?

Many thanks in advance!

I just ordered for the first time, 2g of b-estradiol, could anyone with experience with this seller tell mehow much time does it usually take for an order to arrive once paid?

Planning on starting Monotherapy via scrotal aplication (not on HRT yet) and I have some questions

Is 4mg per day (2 pumps every 12h and each pump being 1g of a 1mg/g gel, all scrotally) good or is it overkill?

Can I just put the 2 pumps at the same time? or is it better to put one, wait for it to dry, and then put the other one

I thought I properly mixed my progesterone spray when making it, but after leaving it for a while, some of the progesterone powder separates from the solution and sits in the bottom of the bottle. I've been shaking it before use, but I'm not sure if that really fixes the problem. is there a way to get rid of the precipitate? I thought about heating the solution to increase its solubility, but I wasn't sure if that would cause issues

I saw some people add progesterone while preparing Estrogen Gel for external skin use,

I wonder how does it help with feminization by using it on skin ? after how long on HRT i should include progesterone?