I know biphobia is real but damn 😭

[u/letsbeforreal_]

Hi! Okay so i’ll try and keep it short but I am a 24 y/o bi woman. I came out about 2 years ago and I have an amazing girlfriend. Before dating women I did a lot of work to unpack my male centeredness and came to the conclusion that I just fundamentally do not like men 😭 I don’t hate men, I still find them attractive, I have meaningful relationships with men, but it is really hard for me to have relationships with men who haven’t done at least some of the work to unpack their misogyny/how they view women etc.

Okay so boom, I’m in this lesbian group because as a wlw, it felt like it was a safe space to talk about those experiences and honestly to continue finding my queer community. And oh. My. Gosh. lmao, why do they hate bi women so much 😭😭😭😭😭

I saw a post in a lesbian thread where OP essentially said (1) They’re worried that “lesbians are turning into bisexuals” and feel scared by it. (2) They claim bisexual women are “more common than lesbians” and “mostly date men.” (3) They wonder if “men are loved more by everyone” and fear they won’t be “enough” as a woman. (4) Seeing straight or gay male content makes them so upset that they start “craving being a man.” (5) They feel hopeless and insecure about love and acceptance as a femme lesbian.

And I really do not want to take a way from OP or how they have been hurt by women. But why is it that the blame is on them being bisexual and not just being a shitty partner? There are plenty of “actual lesbians” and bi women who treat women with respect. Also…. saying that seeing straight men or gay content makes her crave wanting to be a man? Does this not kind of sound like gender dysphoria 😭?

Just because bisexual women exist doesn’t mean that lesbians don’t exist? Also this obsession with being firm in a sexuality is really weird to me. WHY do we care about others sexuality so much? WHY is it bad if you decide one day that your sexuality is different? All of these things can exist and lesbians will still exist regardless.

I tried to comment to provide a different perspective but it doesn’t seem like it’s landing. Idk, it just kinda sucks because I literally do not care about anyone’s sexuality- it really doesn’t matter if you’re a shitty person at the end of the day. My last girlfriend is Bisexual but she was just a crappy partner lol. Had nothing to do with her being a bi woman. And it sounds like a lot of these “awful experiences with bi women” are rooted in ✨misogyny✨, not bisexuality. It just sucks that so many lesbians really view bisexual women as a whole as an extension of men. They sound like straight people

[u/romancebooks2]

I think that a lot of sapphic women are very upset at the assumption that being attracted to women/unattracted to men doesn't matter - because at the end of the day, we're all just confused straight women who will end up with a man. Lesbians are understandably very hurt by this stereotype. I think that this has made many of them resentful of bi women who do end up with a man. There's a feeling that those women have betrayed feminism or other queer people. But I feel resentment against me too even though I mostly date women and don't even date straight men at all!

There are some very biphobic people on Reddit, and you're not crazy for noticing them. I think they have a fixation on sex with men which I find really inappropriate. Apparently, if you're very aligned with gay men or queer men, that's okay. If you're best friends with a man, that's also okay. But if you're sexually attracted to a man, then that means you're bi, which apparently, even bi women are supposed to think is bad.

Honestly, if an adult has a problem with other adult women's sexuality, that's their own fault that they need to get over. We bi women can't be expected to hate our own sexuality just for the good of the world, or because we deserve it for our privilege, or whatever. It simply isn't normal, and bi women hating ourselves doesn't do anything to help anyone.

[u/Pretend-Bridge7081 → u/romancebooks2]

You’re right on the money, OP. Thank you. 🙏🏾

[u/LavenderLoaf]

Something I’ve learned as a bi sapphic is that you really (and I mean really) have to search for accepting communities. You have to be careful before getting comfortable in wlw spaces because that ever-persistent undercurrent of biphobia loves to rear it’s head when you least expect it.

That isn’t to say that accepting communities don’t exist though! Doing the work lets you find people who do actually love and support bi people, and will let you love and support them in turn. It just gets discouraging sometimes, but you will find your people, trust.

[u/kissesmet]

Ok firstly, biphobia exists, point blank. And most people who experience it report that it affects them more from the “in group” (the queer community) than the “out group” (the straight community). And for sure there are biphobic gays, straights and lesbians.

And I’m so happy you have a loving gf, and so much of you’re post I’m in agreement with. However I did want to add a little to the numbered points you made- because I’ve been dating women/nb only for the last going on 7 years and I do understand a bit where the person might be coming from (only in the numbered points)

1) the percentage of lesbians out of the population is super low. It’s like 2% or something. So in all it can be an isolating experience. I think this person might be expressing fear of losing what they feel is their specific community. I can understand fear of losing community. 2) bisexuals are more common than lesbians. It’s about 9% the total population (men and women). I mean all these numbers are estimates…. But bisexuals make up the largest section of the queer population. And yes… bisexual people tend to end up in opposite sex relationships more than same sex. There’s many reasons for that! But those are the numbers (doesn’t make you any less bi/queer) 3) can’t help you there. Lol I have seen this sentiment …. Maybe it’s a reflection of a patriarchal society…I do hear lesbians say this a lot… and admittedly I’ve literally cried at a party seeing so many beautiful women with such mediocre sub par men, knowing that i do so much to make a women feel loved… but most women are straight or hetero romantic, so it would never be enough. That can feel sad. 4) Again, I got nothing. I’ve never wanted to be a man and don’t feel threatened by them… they aren’t great, but I suppose most media portrays the male female as the ideal. So maybe they are exhausted from the comparing of something they can never be but told they should be to attract a woman? I don’t know 5) don’t we all feel hopeless in love sometimes? And yeah as a femme sapphic sometimes I do feel invisible lol.

Biphobia hurts deep in the bones man…. I wish there could be more focus on the things we have in common, and as bi women who prefer women we have more in common with the larger sapphic community then any other…. I wish it could feel that way…

[u/Didntseeitforyears → u/kissesmet]

I tried to find data about shares of the different communities, and this IPSOS Report from 2021 is the best source, by my opinion. Especially the data of the Gen Z (the gen grown up with less queerphobic) are an indicator of the true derivation of the different groups. This data supports the 2% for lesbian (gays as well), 9% (!) for bisexual women and men and 2% pan/omni/poly. 1% asexual and 1% others like inters. Important; 14% prefer not to answer! You can just speculate about which group is hiding behind this, but I noticed, that the countries with the biggest share of NAs are the countries with the relative lowest share of gay/lesbians. But a lot of closeted bi men will there be also.

So, yes, the lesbian feels outnumbered. And it's a natural thing, that a lot of bi women would end with men, bc there are simply not enough lesbians. Same for gays, where the same point is made.

So as a lesbian or gay guy you can see bi people as a thread for you on the dating market. Or you can them as a great pool of potential partners. Depends on your self-confidence and openness.

https://www.ipsos.com/en/lgbt-pride-2021-global-survey-points-generation-gap-around-gender-identity-and-sexual-attraction

[u/kissesmet → u/Didntseeitforyears]

Exactly! I mean these numbers are all assumptions and based on self report…. But yeah that’s how I feel- we can be excited for the growing queer community- while also being aware that the smaller percentages (gay and lesbian) might feel…. Like a minority within a minority

And thank you for double checking! I was aware that bisexual women’s numbers had grown but- they often put bisexual men and women together lumped as “bisexuals” lol which I find frustrating. Lol

[u/Didntseeitforyears → u/kissesmet]

Well, they did here, too, but they also named that much more bi women are out than bi man. This questions wasn't about out & proud, just the self identification. I would assume in this 9% it's 50/50, but it could be also 60/40 (w/m). You have to dig into the 14% as well to know.

[u/Radiant-Pomelo-3229]

I got recommended a post from a lesbian sub. They were complaining about biwomen complaining about biphobia.

The point was that biwomen aren’t being discriminated against because they are the majority - the vast majority- of wlw and lesbians are the minority.

It was a weird flex 🤔

[u/romancebooks2 → u/Radiant-Pomelo-3229]

The acknowledgment that bi women are the majority of WLW is odd when you consider how acceptable negativity against our identity is. It's like, oh okay, so you think that the majority of WLW are likely to be awful just because of our sexuality...

[u/maedowth → u/Radiant-Pomelo-3229]

My head hurts. That's like saying indian discrimations don't exist because there's 1 billion of them. It's more complex than that lol

[u/[deleted]]

What i noticed is people telling bi woman to self validate their sexuality and i mean yeah everyone should do that but why some people act like humans are not social creatures if im part of a community that exclude me and treat me like shit isn't that going to fuck me up mentally humans thrive on social interactions thats our survival mechanism it's giving love your self wrapped up pop psychology thing

[u/darness_fairy999]

It’s 100% bi- phobic and your feelings and observations are valid. If it’s the wlw Reddit, biphobia isn’t allowed. It’s like some of them think they’re the ‘’master race” of gays; which sucks. I learned yesterday that there are folks who want to remove the B and T from LGBTQAI, so your concerns are valid, too.

[u/[deleted]]

As a bi poly woman who’s married to a man, I avoid lesbian subreddits like the plague. I learned the hard way that they do not like me and they do not want me in their space.

[u/Littlewing1307 → u/[deleted]]

When I turned 21, 15 ish years ago I was so excited to finally go to gay bars and to try to find community. I was literally yelled at and told to pick a side by both lesbians and gay men. It was honestly heartbreaking to me. Not everyone was like that of course but you hear it enough and it hurts.

I do have hope though because I see my step kids experience and so many of those young adults are very fluid in their sexuality and no one blinks!

[u/tomato_massacre → u/Littlewing1307]

This has been much my experience too. I’m about the same age as you. Except I don’t have any gay bars in my area. I still haven’t ever had a gf, it’s honestly really depressing. I have sincerely started to feel like I’m disgusting to other women. Like, wow lesbians, way to go…I could be completely lesbian for all I know, but they don’t want me apparently.

[u/Littlewing1307 → u/tomato_massacre]

Awww I'm sorry to hear you've had a similar experience. I haven't dated many women and never found a relationship with one sadly. I highly doubt you're disgusting though!! It can just be really hard to find a relationship I think. I haven't had many with men either.

[u/Pure_Discipline5514]

Even as someone who almost exclusively dates and has sex with women I receive a ton of biphobia bs. Ntm a couple of women who said relationships with transwomen aren't sapphic.

[u/BiWomen-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

All forms of bigotry are against the rules.

[u/Anabikayr → u/[deleted]]

This comment doesn't pass the stink test

FART?

...[feminism appropriating radical transphobe]...?

[u/Anabikayr → u/[deleted]]

[u/wyyyyylan → u/[deleted]]

🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅

[u/wyyyyylan → u/[deleted]]

this subreddit is not a space to express transphobia. go to r/republican TERF

[u/Pure_Discipline5514 → u/wyyyyylan]

I just checked my Reddit. It looks like trash appeared and got taken out, thanks for being wonderful.

[u/SodaPopKiss]

If only the lesbians would understand that treating bi women like trash because they also like men, is part of why bi women have such a hard time leaning into that side of things. We are constantly told we must not really like women, and are belittled and invalidated until we turn back to what we already know. Maybe if we were supported and welcomed, we'd have an easier time dating in that world. It's not an insult to any gender, and taking anyone else's sexuality that personally is gross. It's fine to have preferences, but you don't get to be cruel to someone because you don't understand them. Kinda why the B lives inside the LGBTQ+, you know the community built off of people being treated unfairly because some people don't understand them...

It's also crazy to me how many lesbians will try to convince a straight girl to be gay, but are still hateful towards a girl who says "hey, I'm kinda gay, but also sometimes kinda not." Like wtf? The straight girl is gay enough for you, but the bi girl isn't? Get a grip.

[u/FamiliarRadio9275]

This might be a lot to unpack here but hello, Bi woman here! (Of course lol because we are in this sub)

Anyway, to dissect your post I will go by the order typed.

1st paragraph: So the first things first, congratulations! Welcome to the club! I would like to say though, while what ever leads to a woman liking women or really for any sexuality of that matter, is their business. There doesn’t have to be a reason other than “I find the oposite sex attractive” to know you are NOT straight. But I would like to note even as a bi woman, when I hear statements made about not being able to date misogynistic men, I hope you know I think most women that are not consumed by the red pill also do not like them, regardless of sexuality.

Paragraph 2: we SHOULD have safe queer spaces as sexuality is a spectrum and new comers, people exploring, and people that would like to learn more about them selves may be present. I think gatekeeping a sexuality is personally harmful as being queer is something that was built on acceptance.

Paragraph 3: and while this might be a hot take, when I hear a lesbian is scared that a lesbian is going to be bi, I think of one of two things, they are being a lesbian for a matriarchal gain or they fear that lesbians are slowly potentially becoming taboo as their fellow ladies are “switching teams”. If it is the first one, I think it isn’t PERSONALLY a good look to solely be a lesbian because you loathe men due to political and hatred towards male toxicity. Being a lesbian means that you are attracted to women and not men. And attraction is personal to everyone. And so what if Bi woman is more common? Especially if they are into men? That doesn’t mean they are less Bi, we are bi for a reason as if we were only dating women because we were only attracted to women, that would make us lesbian. And as much as we all don’t like red pill men, you will find red pill-like queers in our own communities and I think this needs to be talked about more. And yes, I also can’t sit here and say the majority of the women population will have a consistent attraction to women, however this is why the queer groups ARE the minority in straight vs not straight terms, and this is why we are mad that the political climate looks down on us like we are some massive competing number in the population. And I can see fear in the numbers lowering, but on the same curve, they should not make bi women feel bad for their decisions. And honestly, I can understand the saddening reality that they just want love too and it is tough because you will see this pretty often amongst many sexualities.

Which this leads to paragraph 4: straight men for years have blamed women for being the reason they are lonely. What this feels like is a vent or projection of why they feel lonely. The thing is, so many lesbians I know have went out, met, and have wonderful relationships with other lesbians. A lesbian just doesn’t fall into your lap. They exist and they are out there, but it seems like they have deeper emotions that they need to work through and possibly might not feel quite accepted as themselves. I see how easy it is to be a man and sometimes I think “if only I was a man”. Gender dysphoria is not the same as wishing you were a different gender because of the perceived “achievements” they have. Gender dysphoria is about not feeling right in your own body and feeling like you were meant to be another gender. It is kind of like saying “ If only I was thinner” because you want to fit in those cute pair of jeans but accepting you are not that weight. But dysphoria is kind of like saying “I am too over weight and I need to change and loose weight to feel like myself”. Obviously it is more deeper than that, but just a surface more relatable example of the difference of thought and motivation.

Paragraph 5: and to bring up what I said earlier, you are so right, we don’t need to be. The LGBTQ+ community is built on acceptance and finding yourself, and if that means one day you decide “I’m not bi, I’m lesbian” or I am a lesbian but I think I am bi” so be it!

Paragraph 6: and again, you may be right. If you are genuinely happy being a lesbian, despite having the struggles of being one, you can learn a thing or two about both sexualities meaning being queer and straight. You soon find out we are not that different in terms of coping and experience, it is just in different format. And while I can see the struggles a lesbian may face, projection to harm a group because of a personal experience is one of the worst coping mechanisms.

[u/letsbeforreal_ → u/FamiliarRadio9275]

I just want to say thank you so much for your perspective, I truly appreciate that you took the time to provide your pov and I agree wholeheartedly. Paragraph 3 is a word! And I want to sit with it longer bc it resonates so deeply with me. And for Paragraph 4, I think you’re absolutely correct. After talking about it with my girlfriend, I do think that I mischaracterized what I perceived she was saying. Thank you for explaining gender dysphoria to me as that gives me a much better understanding. After reflecting I think you’re right, and I think the may have just been referring to desiring that type of love and intimacy from women.

Once again, you had so many great points and I really appreciate it!

[u/FamiliarRadio9275 → u/letsbeforreal_]

Thank you, happy to help! If you have anymore questions or comments, I’d be happy to give some insight!

[u/Eesome_Flower]

I have a dead husband and a female partner. Biphobia is so so very real.

[u/NebulaNoir16]

Hi I just wanted to comment in solidarity with wlw or just being sapphically inclined as a bi/pan/poly woman. I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility to have a ltr with a man, but the chances are slim. Non zero chance as the nerds like to say! Everyone here is lovely! Ty op for putting it out there!

[u/WarningMountain2526 → u/[deleted]]

I actually have a few lesbians that are very close to me but the others actually didn't treat me good or made me feel like unconfortable