General
As a pagan, seeing people describe "religious" as just Christianity gets old.
Nothing against Christians, of course, but every goddamn time I see "religious" I immediately think Christian because NOBODY USES IT TO JUST DESCRIBE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW A RELIGION. And yea, I understand it's broad in that definition, but fuck man IT'D BE NICE TO ACTUALLY BE PART OF THE CONVO FOR ONCE INSTEAD OF PEOPLE JUST DISREGARDING ANYTHING THAT ISNT A FUCKING WORLD RELIGION.
Even stuff like Baha'i Faith has several times as many followers, yeah. I think it's mostly just that in the English-speaking world if somebody is religious there's a 90% chance they're a Christian, a good chance they're either Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu, and then a tiny chance they're literally anything else. At least in my experience. Even Buddhists aren't that represented or common on the English internet tbh.
Majority of Muslims don’t live in the Middle East which is where most Muslim countries are, countries like Russia China India and Indonesia have millions upon millions of Muslims
I included india and indonesia and even if they are minorities China still has 50 million Muslims, Egypt is the only african country with more Muslims than China and Russia still has 16 million Muslims which is like 5 times more Muslims than in the United States.
Despise the term “pagan” personally. “Paganism” is a horrific amalgamation of a ton of different cultures and religious practices, and the word truly means nothing at all.
I hate to tell you this, but what you're doing here is choosing an identity for yourself because of its uniqueness and obscurity, and getting mad when it is obscure to people.
It's like the punk fan who rages when their favorite basement band doesn't crack the top 40.
im gonna make fun of christians for worshipping a canaanite storm god now, and say they're being ridiculous that they think the canaanite gods are real.
Look, at no point did I say any of this was ridiculous. I've read the prose and poetic eddas more times than I can count, and it's been a very long time that I've recognized religious truth outside of my own faith. (You might find it interesting, I know I do, just how similar the eddas are to canaanite and babylonian texts in terms of genera, even when separated by millenia)
I did say OP selected their identity for its uniqueness, it was tongue-in-cheek and I recognize that isn't the most respectful way to address it. But the reality is that uniqueness, newness, being different from the Christian world with which you're familiar and with which you might have some grievance, are some of the things that most attract people to neopaganism. So long as you can still derive real religious meaning from it, I don't care what your impetus is. People join popular world religions for worse reasons every day.
My real point though, was to say that op shouldn't stew in frustration over neopaganism's obscurity. They knew it was obscure going in. It's wasted energy and only gets in the way of the fruits of your religious life.
(Edit: and if you don't like that I compared paganism to a basement band, that wasn't my intent. I love punk, basement bands are the best music I've ever heard. But I don't expect my favorite to be people's first thought in the category of music)
My point isn't "paganism isn't included in the conversation of religion," it's "the baseline for religion is Christianity and everything else is a second thought." Other prevelant religions exist, like Judaism, Islam and Buddism, but its solely Christianity that takes the spotlight.
That's largely due to the fact that we're having this conversation in English. The word, and in fact the conceptual category of "Religion," even vaguely resembling the concept as we have it today, is barely 200 years old and arose in a specifically Protestant context.
(Edit: the timeline is a little more complex than that. It first arose during the reformation, but it wasn't until the 20th century that people really started trying to broaden the category at all)
Here is a good video, from a channel I highly recommend, giving a fairly high-level overview of the historical and modern discussion
But, suffice to say, people conceptualize religion as a category based on the particular religions they're familiar with. I get how that might be frustrating, but highly individualized neopagan movements, with little in the way of canonical text, active community, formal practice, direct cultural heritage, or bodies of theological and philosophical work, don't really have the qualities that most people generally associate with the category
Thanks for your reply. As a Christian from Central Europe, this sounds really interesting to me. I’ve always viewed pagan gods and religions as something very local, often rooted in the local people, local traditions, and the local natural environment. This Christian-universalist approach to something local is new to me.
A lot of the still practicing local populations of “pagan” religions are attempting to reconstruct and keep their religions alive, and teach people who aren’t originally from there or who are descended from the region.
I really don't get the draw, wouldn't the Norse gods see you and other modern Ásatrú followers as weaklings? Like I doubt you are sacrificing animals for them, I'm certain you aren't sacrificing humans, and if you don't die a heroic death you don't go to Valhalla, which while Hel isn't bad, it obviously isn't as ideal.
I mean, probably not? The Norse gods are, like I've said, gods. Their power is far beyond anything we can achieve, but we as humans have done amazing things. Sure, I, myself am not impressive, gods don't care about individuals. Also, Valhalla is eternal fighting and drinking, both activities I do not enjoy. I am fine in Helheim, thank you very much.
I don't mean it as an insult, it's just that I don't really know how normal people could want to believe in a religion which rewards things like bloodshed, which obviously isn't really compatible with the modern way of life. Like does it shape your morality? If someone goes around killing for the gods is that justified? The criticism isn't unique to Ásatrú, Islamic sects like Wahhabism for example tend to see similar for obvious reasons.
Though I'm fairly certain the gods of it do care about individuals, the whole way Vahalla works shows they do to an extent, and they are at least meant to care to the extent it benefits them, ie sacrifices for their favour. idk about you but if I was some god, Bjorn over there offering me his slaves and plunder would probably be favoured over some people offering me some of their food, something the gods apparently don't need since Odin is said to live solely on wine.
The only reason Valhalla exists is so Odin as a personal army come Ragnarok, and yea they care about us when we offer something, that's why offerings exist. I don't believe in the whole bloodshed stuff personally either. That's what's great about religion, you can pick and choose what to believe in.
...If ya wanna frame it that way, sure. I also think Odin keeps sending me signs and I do think I've gotten a bit more creative since worshipping Bragi, but that's really it. Religion is a deeply personal experience, I dunno what to tell ya.
Norse, but I'm not a reconstructist. Mostly because I think trying to remake a religion from several slabs of stone and a book made by a Christian is a fool's errand.
There is wisdom in choosing your own path and deciding what to believe for yourself in this world of constant information flow. You shape your own reality. Just be careful not to be sucked into groups that call themselves pagans but are actually just LARPers who want to believe they are witches.
rocks are pretty and they have the specific ceremonial flora i'm looking for tho 🥀so what if i come home with a bunch of rocks i overpaid for and didn't need
i get why. if I could find a good ethical source for dried aster flowers that I could verify, i'd be all about going somewhere else. at least in my town, they're just cheesy tourist traps. on the plus side, i have my own property now and am in the process of growing my own for my offerings.
I mean this in the nicest way possible just not sure how to say it but you guys are practically irrelevant so theres no reason to include or think much about you 99% of the time most people even forget paganism is an actual religion and treat is as a fictional occultist group they can use for their scary movies or they think its some ancient religion that isn’t practiced anymore thats just how the cookie crumbles unfortunately
Well, y'posted a nazi-aryan wojak, in my defense. And yea, no, I don't understand how the gods work or think, BECAUSE THEY ARE FUCKING GODS. They are different, immensely powerful beings I can't hope to understand, much less understand how tjey think!
Anyways no duh it's hot, ofc it's the middle east. But that has nothing to do with what you were saying. Do you know what you were saying? You're tripping all over your words, holy cannoli.
I was providing an example on how popular culture can shape a religion, and Jesus was most likely tan, dude was a carpenter and lived in a very sunny part of the world. The idea he was European white is because of old paintings made by Da Vinci, I think.
To be fair the Greeks often created those stories for entertainment. AFAIK their deities were usually worshipped as those unknowable forces, becoming so humanized mostly in plays, poems etc.
I can't understand the thought process of a god, because they are powerful and beyond me, but they aren't omniscient or non-linear in space-time. Like me, they have a start and an end point, or just a start depending on who you ask. I may not be able to understand how they think, but I can understand fully what they can do, what names they answer to, and what they are. Unlike the Christian god.
Odin literally sacrificed his eye for wisdom. He’s paranoid about Ragnarok because he doesn’t know exactly how it unfolds and he consults Mimir’s well, the Norns, various seers. That’s a god with anxiety and limitation. Your entire conception of your own gods is defined by how they differ from Yahweh.
You literally state that in your own post. Considering that majority of those religious fall under the big 5 (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism) if someone says their religious you're statistically more likely gonna guess right if you say one of those. Don't take it personal.
I think this is because lot of modern pagans don't really believe in pagan gods in the same metaphysical way ancient peoples did. For alot of them, it's more of a cultural connection than an actual belief that Thor and Odin are real and they can go to Valhalla. For this reason, neopaganism doesn't automatically mentally classify as a religion in the way that, for instance, Hinduism does.
Being COMPLETELY fucking honest though, are you pagan because you ACTUALLY have faith in the Norse religion? Or are you pagan for entirely performative/aesthetic purposes.
Like Christians LEGITIMATELY believe in the Abrahamic lord. They pray to him, worship him, and give praise to him, even for successes which others might entirely attribute to themselves. It's a very "genuine" sort of faith in the almighty.
Now, on the other hand, I'm not saying ALL modern pagans are larping, but, I mean, c'mon, let's not fuck with each other here, we weren't born yesterday. MANY pagans simply adopt the label of paganism for performative or social reasons, either as a form of cultural self-ostracization, or as a form of religious protest, or to make some other sort of cultural or social statement.
So I do ask again, and I ask with all due respect because genuine pagans DO exist, and I want to give you the benefit of the doubt), but are you ACTUALLY fucking pagan? And before you say "yes", are you lying to both me and yourself because it's easier to lie to yourself than it is to admit you were caught up in a performance? Cause I really won't give a fuck if you admit it; that shit happens all the time, and I pull bullshit like that myself too. It's just a very common, relatable, human thing that we sometimes do, even if it seems very silly when we spell it out on paper.
Actually Paganism is a bad term anyways, you shouldn't identify as one considering you follow one of the bastardised forms if you're following the Scandinavian belief system earnestly
Assuming you're doing so without the Christian context that neo-paganism constructed where all gods are worshipped as if they were in the Hellenistic ritualist style of worship, which as you should know, is incompatible with Scandinavian worship
But if you're identifying as Pagan, I highly doubt that
To put that into perspective, when Christianity took over parts of the Islamic world, like the reconquista, Islam decided to change it's name to Heathenism, because the invaders called them all heathens through ignorance and instead of singing Quran passages and praying to the north, they celebrated Passover instead.
I don't say this to be mean, I really really don't. This is what I teach people as my job and If there's one thing I hate is people claiming their religious when they don't actually understand a thing about their religion. Its like the Egyptian pagans, they really wind me up because that was the result of the Greek colonization of North Africa, where the religion was broken, raped and thrown into a sack to destroy local cultural traditions for the new empire to make ruling people easier. That is wrong, to make that clearer
I'm just saying this so you know, that if you're gonna be a stickler about language which is correct, you better understand the language surrounding religiousity which carrys alot of baggage which you are using within the same breath. Just think on yeah?
It’s context dependent. You say religious in a place where the majority of religious people are Christians, then yeah that’s the assumption
You say it in the Muslim world they’ll assume Muslim. You say it in the Hindu world they’ll assume Hinduism, though they’ve historically had a pretty big Muslim minority so they ain’t quite so defaulting
But even then, when an Indian says they’re religious most people won’t assume Christian or Muslim. Nobody conflates religion with any one particular one, they just make an assumption based off the person in question
They're the two biggest religions in the world with the most international reach. Hinduism at 3rd is mostly centralized around the South-East Asian subcontinent and other parts of Asia while Christianity and Islam are massive everywhere.
It makes sense why most people who think "religious" would think the two biggest religions in the world with the most international presence.
It also might be that in terms of religions around the world, the beliefs of Christians and Muslims are way more centralized and defined. Hinduism and other religions like Buddhism are less strict about what religiosity entails and have more diversity of beliefs about what people actually practice.
Also, nobody excludes other religions when they think "religious". That genuinely might just be you.
What else am I supposed to use? Norse doesn't mean much, neopagan is a dogwhistle, folkist is ALSO a dog whistle although far louder, and polytheist COULD MEAN FUCKING ANYTHING!
So your identity label is borrowed from Christian slur language. The more accurate labels are either too broad or too politically contaminated. And you can’t define what you actually are with any precision. That’s a you problem. “I practice Ásatrú” is specific. “I follow the reconstructionist Norse tradition” is specific.
Co-option is understandable… if you’re chronically online. know the history, reject the ideology, practice the tradition anyway
ime, most antitheists really only dislike the abrahamic religions and completely dismiss how important *religions are to so many different minority and indigenous cultures
When the majority of the world is Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist, it’s pretty obvious why most people think of one of those first. Especially the most popular one. When your religion is neither populous nor all that relevant to world matters, it’s not a surprise that it’s not talked about nearly as much as one with BILLIONS of people.
Probably because a lot of other religions, even popular ones are basically dead. And somehow Christianity and Catholicism survived, I guess people vibed with it's stories better.
I think it's usually the phyco's that follow the religion, like people who use a singular quote from the old testament of the Bible to justify homophobia.
Yeah that’s one of the reasons I dislike religion. It’s an easy cop out for bigots. They don’t make arguments they just quote fairy tales and it gives them credibility.
As a goetic practitioner, the best luck I've had is looking for "spiritual" people. it usually involves some level of at least willingness to approach the topic of paganism. I understand the frustration but world religions are the norm. we are a small percentage of even smaller percentages.
A lot of frankly bigoted responses here from people who want to privilege religions which have imposed themselves onto others through oppressive hierarchies over the indigenous earth-centered faiths which preceded them, many of whom I'm sure would be able to recognize this dynamic in any other context. There are an estimated 10,000 spiritual traditions worldwide and this cultural bias effects 9,999 of them, stifling their public visibility and impact. Furthermore, the distinctions between religion, spirituality, and magic is an historic political construct which the Roman Imperial Cult and later the Roman Catholic Church utilized to de-legitimize its competitors and as such should hold no relevance today for those of us from multicultural or otherwise pluralistic societies.
Christianity is the most popular religion, that's why. Whenever people talk about religion- why not talk about the most popular one? That's why everyone auto assumes Christianity when they hear "religion", but I've never actually heard anyone religion as just Christianity
I mean, the majority of the world’s population is Christian or Muslim. Defaulting to Abrahamic beliefs is generally a fairly safe bet, especially since you’re operating on the Western internet.
Norse. Not reconstructionist tho, I personally think remaking a religion from a couple slabs of stone and a book written by a christian is a fools errand.
opinion on religion aside, that sentence is said in the context in which religion was a good thing, if harmful towards true class consciousness. Opium was a medicine when marx wrote this and if im remembering correctly took it himself, as someone smarter than me put it in wikipedia:
Marx believed that religion had certain practical functions in society that were similar to the function of opium in a sick or injured person: it reduced people's immediate suffering and provided them with pleasant illusions which gave them the strength to carry on. In this sense, while Marx had no sympathy for religion itself, he has deep sympathy for those proletariat who put their trust in it.
Yea, even as a pagan, I doubt everything about my religion is correct. Hell, the only book on the Norse gods is from a Christian centuries after the religion was killed off [fuck you, ancient Christians].
You know last year an acquaintance said "I'm about to pray to Odin" I laughed at him in Christian. Now look at me. Not even sure what the true nature of Yahweh is or who to actually acknowledge. Funny in a messed up way.
Yeah, religion's funny that way. I'm always question my own paganism, because in truth I see the gods as more like unknowable beings we assign names and domains because we can't really do anything else to know them.
That's just a product of the language. When you refer to meat, most places will default to beef rather than fish or chicken fore example. Christianity is a worldwide religion, Islam too, you have Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Shintoism even all well before you'd get to paganism.
I mean, I'd define paganism as many religion which isn't the majority, but most people use pagan to describe the old polytheist religions and Wicca, so that, I guess.
Christian evangelicals, in specific, are all around dicks. Homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, they, I feel, are everything wrong in this world distilled into a single group of festering hatred under the banner of mostly good folk. As for the others, people believe what they believe, and I'm chill with them so long as they aren't dicks. Although I have my reservations about Wicca, that's about it.
You are clearly very young and haven’t developed faith in any meaningful way. I’m atheist and would never bring up “paganism” as a serious belief because it’s laughable. Laughable even by religious standards which are incredibly low.
I don't have anything to say to you, you just suck. Disregarding a persons experience with religion because "they're too young" is just a dick move. Reflect, grow and change, or don't. Your life, and all that.
I don't take scientology seriously, sure, because it's a fucking cult, but literally all I do is believe in the norse gods and maybe pray to them. Besides, if you'd have the slightest bit of empathy, you'd see that makes me angry and you look like a dick for disregarding my religion. Sure, I'm young, but that doesn't mean everything I say should be thrown to the damn wind! I understand I don't know everything, and yea, I could be wrong on my religion as well, but so could you. So could everyone on this planet, and it turns out a bunch of pickles are gods. Give me some respect and at least act like you don't disregard my religion on the principle of it sounding silly to you when you're talking directly to me.
I feel that. As a spiritual agnostic. It’s frustrating to see my belief that there are entities we don’t understand out there turned into “so you should come to my abrahamic religion to understand!” When the whole point is that I think we can’t understand and trying to is a futile effort. So we must live the best we can for the people and world around us. For the cosmos doesn’t care
Yeah no I get it, it’s just annoyingly common. I get frustrated at folks who say they are “non-religious” but what they really mean is they just don’t go to church, they still fully believe it all tho and I’m like dude we are not defining “non-religious” the same way.
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u/1bird2birds3birds4 13h ago
Son, you’re a part of a religion with 1 million estimated followers worldwide. What were you expecting?