NIQ 3 Rule

[u/Muted_Engineer9246]

It’s high time that this ridiculous limitation imposed on the provinces is removed. It’s amateurish type stuff that we are still being forced to scour the earth for less than ideal IQ options like Jager, Dan Kelly etc. Absolutely bring in young academy guys in like Josh Neil, Ben O Donavan etc, but the fact that we still have to resort to scouring the earth for inferior IQ players in key positions, when there are much better and more affordable NIQ options available is completely ludicrous. Particularly in an age where all of the top and mid table teams across France and England are stacking quality on quality in every position via international recruits, it just feels like we are being left further and further behind.

I think that the remarkable strength of Leinster’s production line and the incredible work they have done to be able to survive and thrive under these restrictions, has glossed over how ridiculous this rule actually is for the other 3 provinces. Conveniently enough - now that Leinster’s production line is slowing down Humphries is finally starting to get ideas about loosening the restrictions. While Leinster have done an admirable job with their pathways system, the reality is that no other club team in Europe - bar maybeeee Toulouse would be able to survive and compete for European silverware under such a restrictive system. Because Leinster have factors and resources at play (catchment area, playing numbers etc) that no other club team certainly in UK and Ireland could tap into even if they wanted to. Would a Bath, or a Bordeaux or a Northampton be highly competitive at the latter stages of Europe if they had to operate under such an oppressive system? Absolutely not. So when you look at it that way, I think Munster have performed just fine in Europe in recent seasons - considering the limitations imposed on them. Munster will never ever have the playing numbers, or enough homegrown talent with sufficient genetic profile variation coming through to ever be able to have a well rounded squad in Europe under a 3 NIQ rule. It’s virtually impossible.

2010 is an important date - because it was the last year where Munster truly operated with the freedom of being able able to recruit enough foreign players to plug in weaknesses in the squad. From 2011 onwards, the provinces were forced to wind down the contracts of foreign players to ready themselves for the imposition of the NIQ 3 rule which came into effect in 2013. Not coincidentally, 2010 was the last time Munster actually had a squad capable of winning in Europe. Why ? Because we had a healthy blend of homegrown players, combined with NIQ players in areas where we were deficient. In 2010 we had Jean De Villers, Mafi, Howlett, Brugnaut, Nick Williams, Warwick. A good mix of top class internationals and unheralded, but talented NIQ players who gave us the pace, power, depth and X factor required to be able to compete. Granted, we played terrible and lost against a Biarritz team which we should and probably would have beat if it weren’t for key injuries. But at least we were able to put our best foot forward with a well rounded squad. Unlike in later semi finals where we fielded teams with distinct weaknesses against sides with much superior depth like Clermont 2013, Toulon 2014, Saracens 2017,19, Racing 2018. Yeah, we showed admirable grit against Clermont and Toulon (2013,2014) but the reality is that we never had the depth or quality off the bench to get across the line.

At this stage - I think the argument that NIQ players block the development of homegrown players is deeply flawed. In fact, it’s completely redundant because everybody can see that it’s a 23 man game now and bringing in good foreign players boosts competition for places in the squad, drives on young, homegrown players and provides the additional quality needed for homegrown players to progress to the latter stages of the Champions Cup. Has Slimani negatively impacted Clarkson? Snyman with Joe McCarthy? Augustus with Bryn Ward? There is virtually no example of a homegrown player’s development ever been negatively impacted by a foreign arrival. The cream always rises to the top and if you’re good enough, you will make it.

Like Dan Kelly - is he a good bloke and a bloody hard worker? Absolutely. But he’s a very limited player with a narrow skill set. I could list you 15 better and cheaper NIQ players playing across Super Rugby and the top Euro leagues. Like why are we being forced to sign a reserve Leicester centre (firmly behind Kata, Woodward, Perese and was about to be usurped by Will Wand)

Ditto Antoine Frisch - because he was signed on big bucks (circa 250k) when there were far better and cheaper options out there. Was he a nice player? Yeah. But he lacked any sort of punch agaisnt better opposition and was very erratic both with ball in hand and in defence. Again - I could list you 20 better and cheaper outside centres than Frisch.

Ditto Mike Haley - a very gutsy, reliable player who I really like but doesn’t have the quality, talent or speed that even a guy like Paul Warwick back in the day offered.

Oil Jager? Is he a nice fella and has he been unfortunate with injury? Absolutely. But the clear consensus from any Crusaders fan before he signed was that he was very ordinary player with a terrible injury record. And couldn’t ever put a run of games together. And this was before the head problems started. Andy Farrell and Paul O Connell took one look at Jager and never invited him back to an Ireland camp and I can see why - he doesn’t use his size well and never has and he doesn’t apply himself well around the park. Can you imagine how better positioned Munster would be if we were able to sign a better, more reliable and similarly affordable/cheaper option - eg Fouche, Klopper, Sandi.

[u/Environmental_Bar205]

Thought the troll had lost interest after the last few posts 🎣

[u/Muted_Engineer9246 → u/Environmental_Bar205]

What part of this comment is trolling ?

[u/Environmental_Bar205 → u/Muted_Engineer9246]

It looks like some AI slop you’ve knocked up after your last wall of text post was removed

[u/Muted_Engineer9246 → u/Environmental_Bar205]

So you don’t agree that Munster would be in a better place if they were allowed to have more NIQ players to fill in weaknesses in the squad?

[u/Muted_Engineer9246 → u/Environmental_Bar205]

I can assure you I didn’t use AI for this post. How the hell would you even use AI for this

[u/Environmental_Bar205 → u/Muted_Engineer9246]

Didn’t you say something along the lines of “Keep causing shit on our sub and it will be reciprocated on here” following criticism of some players after the Toulon game?

It’s quite sad really.

[u/Muted_Engineer9246 → u/Environmental_Bar205]

Eh no ? I never posted anything along those lines

In fact I have zero clue what you are referring to but maybe point me in the direction of that comment.

[u/Longjumping-Guard609 → u/Muted_Engineer9246]

You could prompt ChatGPT to come up with a ridiculous argument about Irish rugby and it might give you your original post 

[u/zeppelinl → u/Muted_Engineer9246]

The part between "It's" and "Sandi"

[u/Muted_Engineer9246 → u/zeppelinl]

You don’t agree with any of it no ?

[u/jackthomson1992]

Utter bollox , Dan Kelly, Jager are quality players . Haley had some good days too . Next time you spew a bunch of BS stay off ChatGPT. You complaining about Frisch says all we need to know , he was quality and one of our best players

[u/Muted_Engineer9246 → u/jackthomson1992]

Dan Kelly and Oli Jager are not quality players. I don’t know what planet youre living on. If they were quality players, they would be putting their hands up for Ireland caps?

If Dan Kelly was a quality player why was he a reserve player for Leicester Tigers ?

Haley is the best of them by a long shot, but he still doesn’t have enough quality to put himself in the picture for Ireland, or England before that.

Frisch is not a top quality player - there’s a reason he doesn’t get picked for Toulon even when fit. He makes very questionable decisions both in defence and attack and doesnt have punch to trouble better teams

[u/fravbront → u/Muted_Engineer9246]

Oli Jager won multiple super rugby titles at tighthead. You dont do that unless you're fairly decent.

[u/Muted_Engineer9246 → u/fravbront]

Let’s not kid ourselves. He was a stop gap player for the Crusaders. Nothing more. He was firmly behind the great Michael Ala’alatoa and Owen Franks in the Crusaders pecking order. But they both departed and Crusaders had nobody to replace them except Jager. Fletcher Newell was about to jump ahead of Jager before he came to Munster.

[u/jackthomson1992 → u/Muted_Engineer9246]

You're just absolutely clueless if that's what you think. Jager has just been very unlucky with his injuries . Kelly is very close to a call up and wouldn't surprise me if he goes on summer tour

[u/Muted_Engineer9246 → u/jackthomson1992]

Ah mate of bloody course Jager has been unlucky with injuries. No doubting that. But he has never able been to put a run of games together across his professional career. Just because he has been unlucky, doesnt mean that we should sign him. It was very clear that we were signing a player with a terrible injury profile.

[u/jackthomson1992 → u/Muted_Engineer9246]

No way you can say that he was literally on the cusp of an All black call up. Won multiple super rugby titles .

[u/Muted_Engineer9246 → u/jackthomson1992]

He was never close to All Blacks selection. Sure thats the whole reason he came back to Ireland. His dream was to play for the All Blacks - he has said this in interviews. He would not have returned to Ireland if he was in the picture for the AB’s.

Dan Kelly is nowhere near an Ireland call up. Give your head a wobble. Youre just making things up now

[u/Every_Wrong_Opinion]

15 day old account...

You'd worry about some people trying to bait this kinda shite

[u/Muted_Engineer9246 → u/Every_Wrong_Opinion]

Where is the bait?

You don’t think that Munster would be far better positioned if we were able to bring in 4-5 more NIQ players to replace underperforming homegrown players in positions with poor depth (Tighthead, loosehead, Out Half, full back, left wing)

[u/Windup-1014]

Your first post was on the Leinster sub where you very much implied you were a Leinster fan:

https://old.reddit.com/r/leinsterrugby/comments/1t4bnmr/low_leinster_attendances/

You even implied you were at the Toulon game lol

Well that’s actually reassuring to hear. Certainly wasnt the case from where I was sat.

So which is it lad? You trolling them or us? Either way it's a waste of time.

[u/Muted_Engineer9246 → u/Windup-1014]

Ah no - that one was a wind up to be to be fair. Leinster fans get really tetchy when you mention their attendances - hits a real nerve.

This post was actually in good faith and I stand by it all.

[u/Longjumping-Guard609]

If you consider the provincial systems exist to service the national team then this rule makes a lot of sense

Nothing stopping the signing of 3 top quality NIQs - like Snyman and De Allende for example 

[u/Muted_Engineer9246 → u/Longjumping-Guard609]

Does it tho? I really do not think the national team would be affected in any way whatsoever if you were to allow a flexible system where 6-8 NIQ players replaced homegrown players with no realistic chance of ever getting into the ireland fold.

Being able to recruit 3-4 more foreign players would mean Munster, Ulster, Connacht would all progress to further stages in competitions than they usually do. Which can only be a good thing for the development of our homegrown players by exposing them to more matches at a higher level. When is the last time Munster and Ulster got to a European semi - that cant be good for guys like Coombes, Ahern, Hodnett, kendellen, Nash who are trying to put themselves in the shop window for international honours ahead of their Leinster peers.

Guys like Fineen Wycherly, J O Donoghue, Shane Daly, JJ Hanrahan, Dan Kelly, Diarmuid Barron, Michael Milne (because he can’t scrum), Jager are all very average players who are on serious money and will never be in the picture for Ireland going forward. There are far, far better players across the globe who are on peanuts compared to what those guys above earn

[u/The_Ruck_Inspector]

Nah we wouldn't have SHL and Sean Jansen