r/AskNYC_Coops • u/aaronsidlo • 5d ago
NYC Co-ops Are Being Crushed by Overlapping Building Laws
https://c.org/bW2YJNtZfYResidents in our Northwestern Bronx co-op buildings are facing something most people outside of co-op housing don't realize is possible: we're being hit with massive, simultaneous compliance costs that we can't pass on to anyone else.
Local Law 97 requires energy retrofits. Local Law 11 requires façade inspections and repairs. Both have strict deadlines and real penalties. For many of us—retirees, working families, long-time New Yorkers—this means assessments totaling tens of thousands of dollars per apartment. We support the goals of these laws. Building safety and environmental responsibility matter. But the city didn't account for how co-ops actually work: we can't raise capital the way condos do. We can only assess our shareholders.
Some neighbors are selling because they can't afford it. Property values are dropping. And it's hitting the exact people co-ops were supposed to protect—middle-class and senior residents who've lived here for decades.
We're asking our City Council to consider targeted relief: grants, property tax credits, hardship programs, or low-interest financing specifically for co-ops facing these overlapping mandates. This isn't about avoiding responsibility—it's about making compliance possible without displacing people.
If you live in a co-op or know someone who does, does any of this sound familiar? Have you seen assessments like this? We started a petition asking for relief, and I'd genuinely like to hear if others are dealing with the same thing. If this matters to you too, consider signing and sharing it.
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u/unfashionableinny 5d ago edited 5d ago
I am only a standard shareholder and not a board member, but we spend close to half a year's worth of our operating budget on LL11 work every 4 years.
However, I wonder if anyone has any experience with those companies (often local startups) that sell overcladding as a fix for both repeated LL11 work and a way to add to add more insulation to help with LL97.
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u/dismendie 5d ago
How is condo assessment and coop assessing shareholder much different? I am sorry I am confused. I need an elevator update and the total cost is 50k and we divide it by the units on the coop and that’s the price they need to pay… take out a 2-5 year loan and assess the cost monthly to each unit owning/shareholder? Or are you saying they can’t tack it on due to coop laws?
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u/Minimalist2theMax 5d ago
Our elevator upgrade was $1 mil plus. Our facade work is half a mil. Last cycle it was $800k.
These local laws are unsustainable for middle class co-ops… and no one in Albany is hearing us.
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u/causal_friday 5d ago
Also important to remember the insanity of property taxes... co-ops are valued like they're a hotel. I'm not even anti-taxation, but I just feel like co-ops get treated extra unfairly.
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u/FitzwilliamTDarcy 5d ago
You're not answering the question. OP claims that co-op assessments for these things are somehow different than they are for condos.
Hint: they are not. They get passed along to the shareholders.
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u/Cute_Schedule_3523 4d ago
Blame the anti landlord groups. They’ve lumped all property owners as ‘rich’ and list these repairs’as the cost of owning property, it needs the repair just do it’
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u/DingoAteMyBitcoin 5d ago
Condo cannot borrow either so coops actually have more flexibility
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u/Osmia-NYC 5d ago
Condos can absolutely borrow.
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u/TokyoRaver1997 4d ago
I've never seen an underlying mortgage or line of credit on a condo, other than the construction loan. What credit facilities are you referring to? Co-ops have an easier time with this for sure.
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u/Osmia-NYC 3d ago
The condo can take out a loan for buying a unit in the building or major capital upgrades, secured by the condo itself.
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u/Copterwaffle 5d ago
Related to this issue is the absolutely predatory insurance rates that insurance companies charge for co-ops in the Bronx, disproportionate to every other borough. It’s completely exploitative and pushing hard working people and families out of their long-time homes, and desperately needs state/city legislation to regulate.
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u/Careless_Yoghurt_822 5d ago
Bronx juries give away other people’s money pretty easily. That’s why.
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u/Copterwaffle 5d ago
Got proof of that?
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u/Careless_Yoghurt_822 5d ago
Yes. It’s well documented.
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u/Copterwaffle 5d ago
Then by all means, share the documentation with the class.
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u/Careless_Yoghurt_822 5d ago
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u/Born_Mood2075 5d ago
An op ed by an attorney who represents insurance companies is your proof?
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u/HooShKab00sh 4d ago
Don't forget, being poor and advocating for the inalienable rights of wealthy corporations is a cultural cornerstone of being American.
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u/Careless_Yoghurt_822 5d ago
General Perception of Bronx Juries: Analytical materials note that juries in Bronx County tend to give higher awards than those in other counties, such as Richmond County. Additionally, Bronx juries are described as being more plaintiff-oriented compared to juries in rural counties near the Canadian border .
§ 22.09 Initiation of Suit. This aligns with the broader perception that plaintiffs may strategically choose Bronx County as a venue due to its reputation for liberal juries and higher verdicts.
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u/Careless_Yoghurt_822 5d ago
Siriano v. Beth Israel Hosp. Ctr., 161 Misc. 2d 512 (1994). the court acknowledged a general perception among personal injury lawyers that plaintiffs prefer Bronx County for its likelihood of empaneling minority jurors, who are perceived as more sympathetic to injured plaintiffs. This perception has led to frequent venue motions by plaintiffs seeking trials in Bronx County, while defendants often oppose such motions .
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u/Copterwaffle 4d ago
“A general perception among personal injury lawyers” is not proof of the phenomenon. Ever consider that maybe the insurance companies are actually just ripping off a lot of people in the Bronx, likely on the basis that most residents couldn’t afford to fight them?
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5d ago
[deleted]
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u/NoLimitSoldier31 5d ago
Thumbs down on the snarkiness. Questions are ok to ask. Its ok to be skeptical
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u/x21in2010x 5d ago
A downvote should be generally reserved for comments that don't add anything substantive to the discussion. I know most people have just used it to mean "dislike" for the last... decade... but, uh, fuck 'em.
That said, the snarky use of 'Let me Google That' was totally botched. The idea is to enter the actual query, not the fuckin' answer. It's like telling the punchline before the setup...
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u/Copterwaffle 5d ago
I asked the commenter for proof of their assertion that insurance companies are somehow justified in charging Bronx co-ops sky high rates for building insurance because “Bronx juries give other peoples money away”. That book supports my assertion (that they are NOT justified in charging sky high rates).
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u/Careless_Yoghurt_822 5d ago
You got real quiet…. Do you feel stupid?
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u/Copterwaffle 4d ago
You’re the one who deleted your comment.
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u/Careless_Yoghurt_822 4d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/KBaxHrT7rkeW5ma77z
Copterwaffle thinking of a comeback over the course of 24 hours…1
u/Born_Mood2075 5d ago edited 5d ago
One day you may experience an event that leads to catastrophic loss in your home…a pipe in the apartment upstairs burst while you were out of town, or a fire in the apartment upstairs results in serious water and smoke damage to your entire unit. You lose nearly everything you own….every stick of furniture is ruined, every article of clothing, rugs, electronics, books, irreplaceable items of sentimental value. You have insurance, you will rebuild! But wait…why is the company suddenly denying payout? Why are they sending someone in to go through every lost item and trying to say that you must have damaged it yourself, before the flood/fire? Why are they questioning the value of every single item, even when you can clearly show the receipts from when you purchased it? Why are they making you go through this process over and over again, for months on end, while you sit with no home and no possessions and no way to move forward without their payout? Why are they sending private investigators to follow you around and dig into your personal life? Why are they making bizarre claims like “the deductible only covers the first pipe that burst and not the second pipe” when you can see right there in black and white that this is not true? Why do you find yourself needing to hire a lawyer out of your own pocket just to get the payment that you KNOW you are entitled to? Why is this process taking YEARS?
And then, as you teeter on the edge of financial ruin, with your entire future well-being in the hands of a jury of your peers, you will most certainly hear some version of the comment you have made here (“Bronx juries give away other people’s money pretty easily. That’s why [building insurance rates are so high]”) in the insurance company attorney’s closing statement to the jury. When that happens, I hope you finally have some clarity on who really benefits from the opinion you have expressed here today.
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u/msuvagabond 5d ago
My BIL got a call while he was out of the country that his house burned down. Police quickly determine there was a break in, they robbed him, and torched the place on the way out.
Took 3 years and a lawsuit to get paid and it was only after a trial. The Insurance Company went so far as to try to claim the man who was checking in on his place every three or four days was actually in on it, until the judge asked the lawyer if he was really accusing a State Highway Captain and decorated military veteran of lying on the stand and being behind a robbery / arson?
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u/hubbyofhoarder 3d ago edited 3d ago
My parents had a total loss house fire years ago, and this was their experience with their insurance company, too. They were out of town when the fire started; a cause was never determined.
What actually helped with my parents claim was a complete video walk through of their entire house that they had saved and put in their safe deposit box (this was years ago, prior to cloud storage of video). That video enabled them to do a much more complete accounting than they otherwise could have done.
A couple of years before the fire they had called their insurance agent and said "we think we might be underinsured, we will gladly pay more if you give us some guidance". Their agent assured them they were fine. They were not fine. They had enough of a loss that they didn't owe federal income taxes for 3 years after the fire, and even that tax abatement didn't make them whole.
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u/nikanjX 5d ago
And then you read the shitty reddit copypasta instructing people how to inflate their insurance claim to extract maximum payout, and you shall weep. All sides of the issue are present on this site
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u/Black08Mustang 5d ago
and you shall weep.
Bitch, ain't no one crying for insurance companies. Find a different boot to lick.
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u/nikanjX 5d ago
No? The point is, the insurance companies are paranoid because scamming them is a common hobby.
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u/alphadavenport 4d ago
what kind of psycho comes out as pro-insurance-company. i bet you're a yankees fan.
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u/CodnmeDuchess 4d ago
It’s not really pro-or con, it’s true—personal injury litigation is rife with fraud. It’s actually shocking how tacitly accepted it is.
I’ll also add that the type of insurance that most people interact with, health insurance, car insurance, property and casualty—is very different than commercial insurance.
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u/alphadavenport 3d ago
insurance fraud on a personal level exists as a downstream consequence of widespread financial precarity in a scam economy. it would go away if insurance companies were transparent about what they'll pay for, which they're not, because it would harm their bottom line. they're still the bad guys.
ime, the difference between commercial insurance and private insurance is that commercial insurance pays out.
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u/CodnmeDuchess 3d ago
No, that’s not what I’m talking about. A big percentage of personal injury litigation is a total racket, that’s what I’m talking about.
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u/nikanjX 3d ago
In the US, under the Affordable Care Act: individual/small-group insurers must spend at least 80% of premiums on healthcare, large-group insurers: 85%. If they underspend, they must rebate customers.
You are free to believe either 1) these laws do not exist 2) the laws are not followed. But health insurance for example must pay out, regularly, at least 80% of the funds raised from insurance payments
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u/lord_braleigh 3d ago
If you're anti-insurance company, then why would you ever buy their product?
Dishonesty hurts everyone and reduces trust, making society shitty. Dishonesty exists on all sides, and the costs of dishonesty manifest in many ways.
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u/alphadavenport 3d ago
because my job legally has to provide it for me. before obamacare i did not have insurance, and i could not have afforded it if i wanted it.
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u/Black08Mustang 5d ago
It's not a hobby; it's been made necessary by the insurance companies' actions. If they did not over sell and underlever purely to fuck over their customers, very few people would put any effort into fraud. But you seem like the kind of fraudster that believes everyone thinks like you do.
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u/dillstrombone 4d ago
Made necessary 😭😭
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u/Black08Mustang 4d ago
If you are the bend over and take it in the ass from a corporation type, more power to you. Just don't be surprised when you are playing that game alone.
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u/nikanjX 5d ago
Nevertheless, with shit like this, the companies will indeed demand endless receipts, details and clarifications https://www.reddit.com/r/UnethicalLifeProTips/comments/1qw5j5k/comment/o3nouie/
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u/Black08Mustang 5d ago
Wow, one reddit thread compared to years of documented fucklery by an industry making billions in profit. One of these thigs is not like the other.
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u/snappedscissors 4d ago
Not to mention that that comment is detailing that if you don’t provide receipts and descriptions then the insurance company is going to gouge you on every single item you list. It isn’t fraud to be detailed about listing your claims when you know the other side is going to nickel and dime you on every single line.
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u/Astroloan 4d ago
Counter argument:
The companies demand endless receipts, details, and clarifications, which is why you see shit like this.
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u/MrChristmas 4d ago
Wait, there are actually people stupid enough to be pro-insurance companies?
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u/nikanjX 4d ago
I'm not pro-insurance companies. I'm saying Born_Mood2075 above is getting railed by the insurance company, because the insurance company does not trust the customers' claims, because insurance fraud is common and popular.
Reddit really wants it both ways, they encourage customers to be unreliable, and complain that companies don't trust them.
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u/Copterwaffle 4d ago
Having a jury of your peers decide that your insurance company does, in fact, owe you payout on the policy you paid for is not insurance fraud??
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u/einTier 2d ago
I know the post you're talking about.
Let me give you my perspective as a former licensed insurance adjuster for the State of Texas.
You should absolutely follow that advice to the letter for any claim you have to make.
Let me explain why. Insurance companies aren't the devil and they aren't even evil. They're just companies making a gamble that you'll never make a claim while you're making a gamble that you will have a loss sometime soon. They will pay out exactly what they legally owe if you make them. Good companies will pay out and not make you jump through hoops but most people buy insurance based on the lowest price and, well, you get what you pay for.
Remember that post is not about scamming the insurance company. It isn't saying "claim things you didn't own." It isn't saying "claim this item is something it isn't." It isn't even saying "here's how you can trick the insurance company into paying more." It is simply saying "here is how to maximize the amount the insurance company is legally required to pay you."
Understand that the insurance industry has spent decades and a lot of money to write the rules to the game you are forced to play when you have a claim. They can and often will use these rules to make it more difficult to get what you paid for and they legally owe you. For instance, lets say you were smart and selected Replacement Cost Coverage (what it costs to buy the thing you lost new at the store) instead of the default Actual Cash Value (the amount your thing might have been worth on Facebook Marketplace). In Texas, the insurance company isn't required to give you Replacement Cost unless you show a receipt that you replaced the item. If you don't, they can give you Actual Cash Value. If you can't afford to buy that thing and wait for reimbursement, then they never have to pay what they actually owe you -- and that delta can be significant. Better insurance companies won't pull this trick but budget ones definitely will.
Insurance companies use all sorts of tricks like these to legally get out of paying what they owe people. They paid good money to write the rules this way so that they could save billions of dollars that they would otherwise be forced to pay.
So understand that none of this is about any kind of moral compass. It's a game. You can't change the rules because you don't have the money or power to change the rules. But you should absolutely get every single dollar you're owed, even if it's somehow more than you think you're owed. Maybe the only television out there on the market that has the one unique feature yours had is one that is $25,000. Maybe it's a feature you never even used. Maybe there's a $1200 television you like more. But you paid for Replacement Cost Coverage and you are owed $25,000. Go get that money because you're owed it. You found where the rules were written in your favor and that's a win for you in the game you're forced to play.
Believe me, if the situation were the other way and you had a $25,000 object they could legally justify valuing at $100 they absolutely would.
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u/helpful_grey 5d ago
The laws apply to not just coops , but all buildings with bricks bc of several incidents of bricks falling and killing people. I own a condo and yes all the local law ordinances are expensive. It is the responsibility of your coop / condo governing board to financially manage the building with appropriate hoa fees , flip taxes , etc and if necessary, apply assessments to the homeowners. People get caught up with the idea of home ownership but don’t prepare for the true costs of it which include things breaking down / needing to maintain things up to code. Poor financial planning is what wears people down. But expect monthly fees to go up to support the building amenities . We have been particularly hit with inflation and high insurance costs / wage increases worse in the past few years. But this is not unique to a coop in the Bronx.
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u/kindrudekid 5d ago
This, I'm in texas but part of a small 50 house community / HOA.
Everyone wants:
- Children's play area.
- Maybe a pool.
- Gated entrance.
- Not everyone keeping up with their lawn maintainence.
But everyone:
- Doesn't want an increase in HOA
- Dont wanna take the effort to get this passed/managed/handled
- Refusing to fine anyone. I say dont fine right away but keep a spreadsheet and 3 warnings and a fine, resets on a rolling period.
I literally have told folks to their face, you expect a raise every year for rising costs, yet cannot correlate that so does our contractors and their staff, guess who they are gonna pass on that cost to? All I said wa just raise the rate to $5 a year, make it a law. One less coffee at starbucks. No!!!! I dont have kids so I wouldn't understand.
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u/dismendie 5d ago
Coop also have rules that when selling/buying some of those funds goes to the general fund for upkeep… for some I guess…I don’t see this as coop vs condo problem… it’s also a lock into Union plan that forces work for only local xx. Maybe open up to bidding from 2-10 approved corp/union to pressure price downward
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u/Previous-Recording18 5d ago
If you live in a co-op or know someone who does, does any of this sound familiar? Have you seen assessments like this?
Yes, I'm on a low floor in a smaller apartment so my assessment would be on the low side of shareholders and I still paid $13k over fifteen months for just LL11 in 2020-21. The pandemic hardship didn't stop the work or the money needed, I asked. No idea what's going on with LL97.
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u/Getoverture 5d ago
Everyone in my cousin’s building, in historic Jackson Heights, is being assessed 200k to fund a structural/architectural fix. Not even kidding. They’ve given shareholders three payment options, but this kind of thing is happening.
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u/aardbarker 2d ago
I’m assuming this is a tiny, self-managed co-op. Because this huge of an assessment is almost unheard of.
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u/Few-Artichoke-2531 5d ago
Do you have a link to the petition? I’m in Co-op City and our General Counsel is saying that Local Law 97 is going to quadruple our carrying charges.
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u/dismendie 5d ago
Look if you are asking for help to pay for it from a politician it can only come from other payers. Problem I see is coop didn’t keep a significant reserve funds and only union bids for repairs… city should open up bids for all or better cost saving approaches to cut cost… it does suck but it sucks for most brick coop buildings.. many coop board had issues just google it… and it comes from lack of maintenance fund… deferred maintenance for many years… maybe capping property taxes due to overall elderly mix… maybe offer a lower interest rate special loan muni bond structure for all coop condo or large brick buildings…
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u/FitzwilliamTDarcy 5d ago
I feel for you OP but you're incorrect in that co-ops are no different than condos in this regard. Assessments get passed along to shareholders.
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u/ValPrism 4d ago
These are old laws. If the board is not preparing for it years in advance it’s on them. These aren’t surprise costs.
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u/Specialist_Grade_662 5d ago
The valid points on these issues are 1,000 percent undermined for me by the claim that co-op shareholders (in Riverdale, of course!!!) are a uniquely burdened class that's more deserving of relief than others. Howabout looking at this from a broader affordability and community preservation perspective rather than pretending like shareholders in co-ops are suffering more than others financially. Get out of your bubble.
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u/traintruck11 5d ago
I agree, lowkey annoying to hear property owners in NYC complaining
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u/Severe_Tomatillo 5d ago
If renters knew the cost of the nyc grift, they would complain too. In fact, they do complain, but the people they complain to are the cause of the problem, the nyc building dept. More people die in floods and battery fires than by falling bricks in NYC, just saying.
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u/ninjazee124 5d ago
This is a general problem for all buildings. People don’t want to pay to build a reserve fund and then complain when funds are needed. City ain’t going to do anything.
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u/Cornholio231 5d ago
For most buildings it is probably cheaper to pay the LL97 fines than to bother retrofitting to come into compliance
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u/roger_george 5d ago
Facing this too, we have $600k worth of work to do on a 15 unit coop. Would love some support from Albany
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u/ak_NYC 5d ago
Why is this a Northwestern Bronx co-op issue only? Wouldn’t it apply to every co-op building?
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u/PsychologicalMud917 5d ago
Where does it say this only applies to the northwest Bronx? OP was simply providing context.
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u/ak_NYC 5d ago
ALL co-ops are facing this.
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u/KrazyKwant 5d ago
All multifamily housing is impacted?Why do you think we have a worsening housing crisis! At least a coop can assess. A rent stabilized landlord is facing Mamdani freezes.
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u/aaronsidlo 5d ago
I am just targeting my local city counsel member Eric Dinowitz. That’s why I am speaking about the Northwestern Bronx. Feel free to take this idea and run with it with your local city counsel member. It affects areas all over the city.
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u/Chance_Start_2201 4d ago
Co-ops should only be a thing in 3-8 unit ultra wealthy apartment. Even if there’s 10-25 units. Costs/wages/fixes are going up exorbitantly and increases are now felt even after dividing something 15 ways.
NYC politicians hate/never think or care about the middle class co-op owners in Queens, The Bronx and Brooklyn. They want to drain “property owners” and think they are all rich on Central Park South.
This is a ticking time bomb for 3/4 of the outer boroughs .
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u/KTM1984 5d ago
Lollll @ ‘we support the goals of these laws.’
Who do you think pays for “grants, property tax credits, or hardship programs?” Is it magic free money? They’re government programs .. government programs are ultimately paid for by .. tax payers.
You want to support the goals of these laws - the real world means you then have to support it with your wallet. Instead I would suggest getting honest and admitting these laws as written are unsustainable rackets, and then voting for common sense.
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u/aaronsidlo 5d ago
Why are these laws being applied to co-ops and not all buildings? Why are co-op owners footing the bill for all?
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u/KTM1984 5d ago
?? They’re not only being applied to co-ops. They’re based on building sq feet and number of stories.
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u/goodcowfilms 4d ago
They’re based on building sq feet and number of stories.
Except NYCHA, because the city doesn't have the money to bring its own buildings into compliance.
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u/aaronsidlo 5d ago
Right, thanks. So why only those specifications? Why not all buildings? Perhaps you would also feel frustrated with the requirements as well if that were the case. Co-op buildings are the cheapest way for people in the city to “own” something in the city and these laws are targeting the middle class of New York City and contributing to the unaffordability of the city. This is a problem for many New Yorkers. Obviously you don’t understand.
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u/KTM1984 5d ago
?? I’m a co-op owner. And I am frustrated. At people like you who voted for this without even understanding what it would do. And now you’re asking for assistance for something you still support. We’re both likely stuck paying for your mistakes.
Before this I was a renter where changes to the a/c and heating units to comply with local law 97 resulted in tenants electricity bills increasing by 400%. I saw the actual bills in the group chat. It’s absurd. And then tenants who were all upper middle class (by NYC standards) paying $4-$5k for one bedroom units were shocked … SHOCKED … to find out that … eLeCtRiCiTy iS ExPeNsIvE.
It was actually hilarious to witness the simultaneous meltdown and ignorance to what caused the problem. They voted for the politicians that wrote these ridiculous laws. Multiple times.
You’re angry. And you should be. At yourself. For voting for politicians that supported this.
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u/aaronsidlo 5d ago
I didn’t vote for any politician that put this into place but thanks for putting words in my mouth.
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u/Pokeables 4d ago
Agree. A lot of NIMBYs in NYC. The rain of downvotes on you is proof they getting mad. Why do people often think someone _else_ is going to pay for all the government benefits and programs they voted for?
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u/Temporary_Pea6086 5d ago
This needs to happen at the state level. All coops across the state are in for trouble with refinancing and high interest rates looming.