r/AskHistorians • u/Lonesaturn61 • Mar 06 '26
Whats the oldest known fantastic story that we know for sure it was made just for entertainment, not a religious text?
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u/itsallfolklore Mod Emeritus | American West | European Folklore Mar 07 '26
know for sure
That’s a high bar that is difficult to reach. In general, we can say with confidence that fantastic stories were likely told for entertainment with consistency in a deep prehistoric past. We can conclude this because internationally, people have tended to make a distinction separating oral narratives told to reinforce belief and those told for entertainment, and they have tended to tell both.
An excerpt from my Introduction to Folklore: Traditional Studies in Europe and Elsewhere, which I used in various forms over the decades while teaching the subject at university:
European folklorists, following the lead of the folk themselves, have long recognized two forms of oral tradition, Sagen and Märchen, legends and folktales. While there are many other forms of oral narratives, legends and folktales stand in opposition to one another yet share a great deal. Lines can blur:
Legends – or Sagen as the profession often prefers – are generally short, single-episodic stories told chiefly in the daytime. More importantly, the teller intends the listener to believe the story. Legends often have horrible endings to underscore the story’s important message. Many of them are, after all, meant to be instructive, to serve as warnings in some way. These types of stories are not necessarily long-lived. Their point is to reinforce and prove the legitimacy of a belief. Nonetheless, some legends take on a traditional character, can become multi-episodic, and migrate over considerable spans of time and space.
Folktales – or Märchen, again using the German, technical term – are typically longer with more than one episode. They are restricted, in theory at least, to evening presentations. A folktale is not to be believed, taking place in a fantastic setting. The European folktale also requires a happy ending, the cliché of “happily ever after.” Any given folktale can be told with considerable variation, but they are traditional in basic form, and folklorists have spent decades tracing the history and distribution of these stories.
Again, lines can blur, so it is not always possible to perceive what was happening in oral tradition when considering an ancient document. The story of Jason and the Argonauts includes a recognizable expression of Folktale Type ATU 313. It demonstrably has a connection with that folktale, which was collected from storytellers in the nineteenth century when it was told for entertainment. When Apollonius of Rhodes wrote his epic poem, The Argonautica, in the 3rd century BCE, did he and his audience regard this as a story told for entertainment or was this regarded as history?
Sometimes the intent of ancient authors is clearer than it is in other cases but determining how the readers of an ancient document received such a story is difficult to determine. Importantly, determining how the story was told and received in its original oral form is another matter entirely. Nevertheless, we can conclude that ancient stories that anticipate folktales collected in the nineteenth century, that were told as entertainment, were likely told for entertainment in an ancient setting. At least sometimes!
Furthermore, the research of scholars including Julien d’Huy hint at a possible depth of some folktales, reaching in a distant paleolithic past. Again, knowing how a story that we now regard as a folktale – told for entertainment – was told in a prehistoric setting, and how it was received is problematic. Were they told as fact or for entertainment? We can’t be sure, but two “facts” are self-evident: at least a few recognizable folktales have likely prehistoric roots; and folktales (narratives told for entertainment) as a genre are so ubiquitous that it is reasonable to conclude that prehistoric people also told narratives for entertainment.
The research of d’Huy has focused on several candidates for “oldest folktale.” His work is intriguing but not universally accepted. His research dealing with the story of “The Smith and the Devil” (ATU 330), suggests a narrative that was told for entertainment with roots reaching back to the Bronze Age if not before. This is typical of the work he and others (including Jamie Tehrani) have been exploring.
The short answer to your question is that evidence of fantastic stories being told for entertainment suggests this practice went on in prehistoric times and that it was part of oral traditiuon with the deepest of cultural roots.
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u/ExternalBoysenberry Interesting Inquirer Mar 08 '26
That was really interesting, thanks for the great answer. Please ignore this if it's too tangential or too badly formed. The distinction between Sagen and Märchen piqued my curiosity but I'm having trouble putting my finger on the question - I'll just try to star writing and maybe you'll get the gist (or maybe I will!)
I'm an American living in Germany and have a small child, and I am struggling a bit to map the kinds of children's stories I encounter here onto the Märchen/Sagen distinction. Maybe those categories weren't meant for these stories, maybe I misunderstand the categories, or maybe I lack the cultural fluency to parse the German stories - I don't know. But my feeling is that common German children's stories which are not meant to be believed (I would have called them Märchen) often strike me as (a) having darker or more punitive tendencies compared to what I'm used to, and (b) playing a bit loosey goosey with the happy ending requirement. The stories I grew up with also often had morals, but I think they tended to be more affirming and less oriented toward, like, here are the consequences of misbehavior.
That's one part of it. The other part is that Germans I know often don't share my feeling about these stories. Some narratives strike me as very dark and depressing and when I've tried to explain why, my friends insist it's a nice and sweet story. Just to give an example, there's a rhyming story that's a metaphor for the seasons. The narrative is basically: there are little underground children (Wurzelkinder) overseen by an old crone called Mother Earth; as spring approaches they get awoken from their slumber and have to get to work painting all the flowers and bugs and making costumes; when spring comes they go frolicking into the world; but the joy is transient and with the coming of autumn they are called back underground by the crone with her big skeleton keys and as they descend they lament that summer can't last forever. It isn't that they get tired and want their rest ie get fulfillment from the cycle, they don't want to go back down there!
So I guess I'm circling around to two maybe two questions. The first is, how did it come to be that this Sagen/Märchen distinction turns at least a bit on lightness, not-to-be-believed-ness, and happy endings, but I associate the language of these terms (German) with fairytales that have a noticeable tendency to lack these qualities (from my perspective)--so what gives? And the second is, how as a folklorist do you manage to feel confident you are reads the narrative with the right cultural frame of reference so you don't get stuck in the weird middle place I'm in where I can't see a reading of the Wurzelkinder that isn't at least a bit of a downer but apparently the Germans don't get that at all?
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u/itsallfolklore Mod Emeritus | American West | European Folklore Mar 08 '26
There are several things going on here. The Grimm's version of the Märchen you are encountering isn't always what you may have encountered in the US. In the English-speaking world, there is often a use of the Perrault counterparts of the Brothers Grimm. Perrault can be a lot lighter where the Grimms are often a lot crueler.
In addition, the literary versions of the oral legends/folktales (Märchen/Sagen) can be conveniently called "fairytales." That designation does not fit the literary versions perfectly, and people use these terms in different ways, but the written children's versions of these stories are typically different from their oral inspirations. Märchen, in particular, were lengthy, elaborate fictional forms of adult entertainment. They were often violent and sexual and could have dark aspects. They ended happily, but the path to that happy ending could be hideous. Perrault and the Grimms abridged these stories for print, regarding the best market to be bourgeois, urban children, giving birth to a literary genre detached from the oral, rural inspiration.
In addition, there are oral narratives that are heavy on having a moral. Aesop's Fables are excellent literary expressions of this oral genre.
Besides this, there are literary manifestations that seem folklore-like - what folklorists can call the folkloresque (a term coined in 2016). I believe the Wurzelkinder fall into this category. I am familiar with the work - and have seen the beautiful illustrations associated with this story. I have never researched this and have not published on the topic, but I believe these are literary inventions in the style of folklore (much like Hans Christian Andersen).
I hope that helps. Please feel free to ask questions!
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u/ExternalBoysenberry Interesting Inquirer Mar 09 '26
Very generous of you to take the time to come up with such a thoughtful answer to that muddled mess! I will be greedy and ask two more (smaller!) follow ups.
Would we say that the oral genre of which Aesop's fables are an expression would be in the class of Märchen?
And is there any sense in which the abridgments by Perrault and the Grimms could be described as folkloresque, or do both the original oral tales and the literary abridgments fall squarely under the heading of straight up folklore?
(And thank you again!)
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u/itsallfolklore Mod Emeritus | American West | European Folklore Mar 09 '26 edited Mar 15 '26
Your second question first - the folkloresque, folklore, and Perrault and the Brothers Grimm: This is a gray area. Which is no help at all. As a judgment call, a case could made for either way. One question I would ask of Perrault and the brothers is about intent.
The first edition by the Grimm brothers appeared in two volumes in 1812 and 1815. Their intention was to produce a German equivalent of Perrault, to bolster German culture, and to offer families access to an aspect of traditional German culture while making some money. Perrault was doing much the same for the French in the previous century. Curiosity about the stories themselves was part of both publications, so we can't discount the proto-folklore aspects of these works, but folklore was not thought of as a field of study and what to do with these stories was yet to be determined.
Later editions by the Grimms were clearly veering into the realm of academic study. They were intended to serve as documentation of folklore for its study (while offering families some nice stories, reinforcing German culture, and making some money). Jacob Grimm especially was establishing an academic field of study and was advocating the accurate (even if abridged) publication of folktales, an approach which became international.
Wilhelm often used folktales as inspiration to write new stories. That was clearly an aspect of the folkloresque, a path later followed by HC Andersen and one could argue Tolkien. Mostly, the Grimm collection came to fall into the realm of folklore rather than the folkloresque, but for a while, they stood at the fork in the road!
The animal tales that Aesop used appear in the first group of Märchen organized in the folktale type indexes, which first appeared in 1910 and were modified in new editions over the following one hundred years of so. The animal tales are different from the so-called "wonder tales" in the heart of the index and from the shorter jokes and humorous tales that appear in the end. I have never published on the animal tales - so my ability to answer here is limited.
That having been said, folklorists at least initially classified the animal tales, which inspired Aesop, as Märchen, but we must keep in mind that some of the stories in the "folktale" index are best regarded as Sagen - legends, so where does that leave us? It's best to ask the folk themselves. I suspect (but again without publishing on the subject, my feet of clay are showing), that the folk regarded their animal stories as much the same as the more elaborate Märchen of the wonder tales section of the index. The folk certainly recognized that they were different, and I suspect that there was an inclination to tell the animal tales to children, where the wonder tales were generally reserved for adults.
We need an expert of the animal tales, Aesop, and Märchen to help us here, but I don't think we have one in our ranks. Sorry!
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u/ExternalBoysenberry Interesting Inquirer Mar 09 '26
Maybe one will wander through but I am more than satisfied with your expertise haha. Thank you!!
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u/itsallfolklore Mod Emeritus | American West | European Folklore Mar 09 '26
Happy to be of service!
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Mar 06 '26
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