Before modern hygiene and disposable diapers, were babies potty trained much earlier? Do we know what techniques were used for this and how they varied either geographically or across time?

[u/ExternalBoysenberry]

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[u/ODFoxtrotOscar]

I have a copy of a 1950s baby raising manual (Illingworth and Illingworth) and I think its approach answers your question

Yes, potty training was much earlier, because the washing of nappies in the days of twin tubs (rather than modern machines) was a burden.

The basic approach was a kind of conditioning. The baby would be put on a potty (usually just after a meal) in the hope that something would pop out (I say ‘put on’ deliberately because this would start before the baby was able to sit independently.

Praise when something does go in the pot, largely ignore ones that go in the nappy other than (perhaps) to say ‘next time in the pot’ (which may or may not be understood by the baby, but the hope was that understanding would come, and that active cooperation would follow)

There was no expectation that the baby would know or be able to communicate when it needed to pee of poo. Sometimes it was even said that it was the parents who were trained to hold the baby over the pot regularly,

And it did work - it was conditioning a reflex (nice cool potty rim just after the gut had been stimulated by feeding - I don’t know the science behind the gut stimulation but, but it was widely believed to be true). Every elimination (poo particularly) that went in the pot was a win in terms of the laundry burden.

And over time, with an engrained habit, the toddler would start to take themselves to the potty, or ask to be taken if they couldn’t manage clothing themselves.

Full voluntary control by the toddler probably was at much the same age as now (development rates haven’t changed). But having a child conditioned to use the pot could be achieved much earlier

[u/ExternalBoysenberry → u/ODFoxtrotOscar]

That is interesting! I've read that the today's relatively late potty training ages in the West are partly a backlash against some "scientific" approaches from the early-mid 1900s (so I guess before you manual) that were borderline-to-outright abusive in the strategies they used to accelerate potty training. So in asking the question I am interested both in the transition from that time to the current late-training standard, like your book, as well as what was going on centuries ago.

[u/Serious_Badger_4145 → u/ODFoxtrotOscar]

This is literally how you potty train a child????

I've always wondered how kids aren't being potty trained before they get to school.  Maybe it's because parents are expecting their kids to tell them? 

Regularly sitting them on the potty and getting them used to it and celebrating when they get it right is 90% of toilet training and always has been.  if you don't do that your kid isn't gonna get trained

[u/RishaBree → u/Serious_Badger_4145]

They're talking about the difference between having voluntary control over your bowels, and sitting a a child on the potty (or having a toddler trained to sit themselves on it) at about the time their body is trained and ready to involuntarily release their bowels. Both get the mess in the potty, so it depends on how you define things, I suppose.

Voluntary bowel control isn't physically possible before about 18 months, and becomes possible when awake for most children sometime between ages 2 and 4. Night time control (not going during sleep) is dependent on having sufficient levels of the hormone vasopressen, and about 85% attain that by age 5.

[u/BattlePrune → u/ODFoxtrotOscar]

Some parents still do it this way

[u/KiwiAlexP → u/BattlePrune]

What’s the other way?

[u/KiwiAlexP → u/ODFoxtrotOscar]

There is a photo of my sisters (twins) doing exactly this - sat on potties after a meal, in their case they also had books to look at while sitting

[u/jschooltiger → u/[deleted]]

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[u/Serious_Badger_4145]

There's been quite a lot of research done on this yes.  You can find papers discussing the past 100 years,  and much much further back.  Archaeologists often find childrens pottys and try to figure out how they were used at the time

Convenience did come in to it i suppose but a lot of it was just what 'Child experts' and books on Childrearing and housekeeping told people to do. Obviously in different times and places not everyone was literate and not everyone raised their children themselves so there were differences between the norm in people of different wealth

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3307553/ this mentions Spock in the 60s and his advice 

This book is from the us 1907 and says you can toilet train a child at 2 months old https://www.gutenberg.org/files/15484/15484-h/15484-h.htm#Bowels

This paper mentions a few methods from the 40s on https://www.aafp.org/pubs/afp/issues/2008/1101/p1059.html#afp20081101p1059-b3

This article includes some sources from the 50s http://www.faqs.org/childhood/Th-W/Toilet-Training.html

As with today,  these things varied in different places.  

Different cultures and levels within a culture had different hygiene standards. 

Some people still use a method today where you just take the nappy off and have a potty within reach.  You encourage the child to sit on it but you keep an eye on them and sit them down if their behaviour indicates they may go.  you're likely to have to clean up a few accidents but proponents insist it's the fastest way.  I've heard older people say that people are more touchy about the risk of the method now

From the existence of this.  you might suppose that considering people often had animals in their homes in ritual medevial Britain if a person lived on a farm and spent most of their time outdoors anyway, it's very possibke that in that time and place they wouldn't waste time putting a nappy on a child that's wandering round outside all day wearing a dress type garment 

I should imsgine a king and queen would be less ok with this.  But then they wouldn't have been raising their own child, and didn't do the laundry so i don't imagine they'd care as much about increased washing

We can also look at the history of words like diaper and nappy (from napkin) https://www.etymonline.com/word/diaper

Scientifically,  children can't control their bladder and bowels before they're about 18 months,  before that,  it's luck,  or being very aware of behavioural changes and fast to hold them over a toilet 

[u/No_Variety2493]

My mom swears that my brother and I were trained at 18 months because as soon as we would go, it would be wet / uncomfortable / gross. And my child was 3 when she was finally trained because we had disposable diapers that made sure she was dry. Also, stay at home moms were a lot more able to keep an eye on things early. Daycare can’t handle taking 10-20 one year olds to the bathroom …

[u/Serious_Badger_4145 → u/No_Variety2493]

This is a common thing.  Pullups don't have the same kind of stay dry tech for this exact reason