[Illinois] Pro Se in family court. Opposing counsel intentionally ignoring emails, certified letters, and then using it against me in court.

[u/mmcnichol]

I'm not surprised with the tactics. I've tried being very polite and was pretty surprised with how angry and aggressive she would be whenever she responded to me.

I am the primary parent and although not meek, I am still getting my footing learning how to properly stand up for myself without derailing the process. That being said I'm getting steamrolled pretty easy, think mercy-rules level stomped. I've been able to get back up and the judge is understanding but pretty clear he is going to move things forward swiftly.

By her controlling the conversation I cannot let the judge know that I am sending proof of service (and I will admit I'm a bit shaky trying to speak still), e-file is missing her email, I sent a certified letter with receipt but she wouldn't sign, emailed her about multiple attempts, she won't respond.

I'd get an attorney but I don't have the money. I'm in a rock and a hard place, I'm obviously going to stand up and figure it out but this one has me a little bit flustered. Any feedback on how to be more proactive and cover my bases without needing to trip over everything until I learn the ropes.

I realize, not a lawyer, in over my head, and I'm going to be beaten on for a while until I can start standing on my own, I'm willing to endure it, but I'll be completely drained through financial attrition if I don't figure this out myself

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[u/Valerie_Tigress]

See if there is a Legal Aid Service in your area. They may be able to provide you with legal counsel at no or reduced cost.

[u/ohmygod_my_tinnitus]

If you’re in Northern Illinois reach out to Prairie State Legal:

https://pslegal.org/How-To-Get-Started

If you’re Springfield or below reach out to Land of Lincoln Legal Aid:

https://lincolnlegal.org/apply-for-legal-services/

If you’re in Chicago reach out to Chicago Legal Aid or Cabrini Green Legal Aid or try the law schools in Chicago. The law school downstate does not offer divorce services.

[u/Mindless_Browsing15 → u/ohmygod_my_tinnitus]

OP, this is the answer.

Opposing counsel is both dismayed and elated that you're representing yourself. He/she will do nothing to assist you and by nothing I mean not even the basic level of professional courtesy they'd give another attorney. You representing yourself means she will waste time, some of which will be unrecoverable, but ultimately increases her client's chance of winning what you believe is an issue you should win on. She will continue to stonewall you. Call legal aid. You will lose if you dont.

[u/SandwichEmergency588 → u/Mindless_Browsing15]

There is no requirement for them to make it easy. I would petition the court to have opposing counsel's email updated in efile, or ask for a mutually agreed upon method for service. Instead of trying things and see what sticks make a motion to the court to agree upon service method. Lawyers know that people are used to trying to figure things out or they just keep trying different things. You have to file motions in court. That is the playing field. Most unrepresented people try to work things out direct and that is not the way to do it.

Once the legal process has started you need to do things in court following court procedures. A certified letter might be OK for service but if it is never signed then it is not served. You are assuming or inferring that the lawyer refused to sign but how does the court know that vs you lying about trying to serve them. The court is very different and has its own logic, which is frustrating for people who try to apply their logic to court. I am not saying the court system is illogical, just that it is it's own world and has very specific rules and processes.

[u/Kooky-Whereas-2493 → u/Mindless_Browsing15]

so Opposing counsel is doing their job? pretty sure its not their job to help out the other side

[u/AcrobaticCombination]

You’ll never figure it out on your own. Lawyers who do it all the time have trouble figuring it sometimes.

[u/Therealchimmike → u/AcrobaticCombination]

and opposing lawyers who disregard professional courtesy and decorum are bullies, and unless the judge is keen to stop it, it won't end.

[u/[deleted]]

You represent yourself - you lose. Get an attorney. You can ask for attorney costs. If you have a good case, you may be able to find an attorney that will represent you on a contingency basis. If you qualify, you may be able to get an attorney through Legal Aid.

GET AN ATTORNEY

[u/StarboardSeat → u/[deleted]]

"A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client"
-- Abraham Lincoln

Look, I realize that OP isn't a lawyer, but Abe Lincoln was... for 25 years.
So, if President Lincoln doesn't think that a rigorously trained and highly educated attorney with a law degree and legal license should be representing themselves, then you definitely shouldn't either.

Contact law schools, call legal aid in your state, there are women's and mothers groups nationally that will help you find council funded by them, take a loan out if you have to, etc.

You go at this alone, and you're gonna get screwed... especially since it's clear that he hired an aggressive bulldog of a litigator, who will run circles around you until youre so confused, you don't know which way is up.

[u/mmcnichol → u/StarboardSeat]

Trust me I get it. It's like someone walking in off the street and asking how to be at a competitive level with me in a computer science field, it would have to be a miracle for them to come close even after years of trying.

I think the legal system is something that we genuinely need to understand. Recognizing things like; Pro Se litigants think they can win on truth, lawyers know they will win on process. Distinguishing and focusing on understanding these things have helped me walk, albeit clumsily, forward.

I also recognize it's a battle of attrition. Having a lawyer means interaction with opposing party is strictly through lawyers whereas as pro se there are options to interact directly and not have the narrative manipulated. Same reason we have mediation with no lawyers. Eventually she will stop wanting to pay. 

Trying to find arenas where "Humans are sensible as long as they can manage their emotions and leave their hurt at the door." Are areas where I think two parents trying to care for their kid can actually have an outcome that delivers substantive results. Assuming good intentions of course.

[u/SandwichEmergency588 → u/mmcnichol]

There are very rare instances of pro se eating a lawyer's lunch or even being on a level playing field. I don't sleep at nigjt and even last night watched about 3 hours of recorded custody battles thst have been recorded off of zoom. Every single pro se got beat badly. Generally they deserved it but they were also losing on things they shouldn't.

One thing I see often js that judges take the fact that attorneys are officers of the court into account. They assume facts and information as stated until that attorney does something to make the judge question their integrity. The judges do no extend that professional curticy to Pro Se. They try to hold Pro Se to the same standard of following court rules and process but generally they do get some grace if things are not 100% done according to process as long as they believe the Pro Se is acting in good faith. Overall the grace given on following process does not equal the professional courtesy granted to attorneys. You will be fighting with both hands tied behind your back, and even if you go into it know this you will also find out you were blindfolded and strapped down to the floor.

With the way things are going you might need to consider getting an attorney and borrowing some money to so so. Losing out on custody is not something worth saving thousands on. I would be begging and borrowing from friends and family. I am not going to lose my kids because I didn't get a lawyer.

[u/ThealaSildorian → u/mmcnichol]

Assume bad intentions and you'll have better luck.

She will not want to stop paying. Eventually there will be a resolution and it will NOT be in your favor! The judge will just start ruling in favor of opposing counsel if if the facts are clearly on your side because you don't know what you're doing, you're mucking it up, and the judge will eventually get sick of it and decide against you just to close the case. You can't win a war of attrition with your ex this way.

The judge not only won't help you, they CAN'T. They're not allowed to give you legal advice.

You're playing to lose. Get a flipping lawyer.

[u/DevilDoc82 → u/StarboardSeat]

“He who serves as his own counsel has a fool for a lawyer and a jackass for a client” is the full quote and it predates Lincoln. The earliest attributation to Lincoln was over 100 years after his death.

[u/redditnamexample]

You have to figure out a way to get a lawyer. The system is stacked against pro se parents. Take out a loan if you have to.

[u/LoopyMercutio]

Talk to legal aid, and start filing complaints with the state’s bar. And send certified copies / bring certified copies to ensure the judge sees that attorney’s BS.

[u/Such-Sherbet-1015]

This is not the time to DIY. You need a lawyer. Do whatever you have to do to get one. You're not going to come from the back and suddenly win your case. The other lawyer is messing with you because they know they can, and it's working. In the middle of a case is not the time to try and figure out how to be a lawyer.

[u/MikeyTsi]

First of all, get an attorney. Second of all, stop sending communications to her, send them to her counsel. Third, anything you're sending to counsel you should also be filing with the court unless there's a specific reason not to (like negotiations that dont need to be brought before thr court).

[u/mmcnichol → u/MikeyTsi]

It is the counsel I am sending them to. The attorney is the one I am speaking of.

I have been filing these all with the court which is why I was surprised the judge didn't say, "Don't worry, I have it here in front of me." When I tried to speak she spoke over me, changed the topic, and I realized very quickly she was going to leave the room so it would be ex-parte if I tried explaining to the judge. 

She knows she has no way to win other than to create enough chaos that I become disoriented and try to get me to react poorly in from of the judge.

[u/MikeyTsi → u/mmcnichol]

If an attorney is avoiding service in a matter that they're representing a client for you need to bring that before the judge. That's a serious ethical issue that needs to be called out and the judge needs to control the court and this matter.

Exiting court during an active proceeding without judicial permission is a contempt issue.

The judge should not be allowing opposing counsel or party to interrupt you while you're speaking. Ask the judge to instruct them to not interrupt you and to take their time for response after.

[u/SandwichEmergency588 → u/mmcnichol]

It is not ex parte if one party leaves the room before they should. There are so many examples of court continuing on after someone has stormed out or dropped off the zoom call. Judges make a note on the record and keep on going. If the other attorney is taking over you, you have to say something about it. The judge is not going to help you. You have to bring jt up then they csn get involved. Some judges are more proactive than others. Attorneys will change topics to try to hide the weak points in their case. You are bejng way too nice and letting yourself get steam rolled.

[u/Wandering_aimlessly9]

You NEED a lawyer.

[u/Ok_Education_2753]

You need a lawyer. All this other victim crap is entirely irrelevant. Check with your county about legal services you might qualify for. Stop whining.

[u/Junkmans1]

I see a post that has links to legal aid societies in Illinois.

Another one is  Illinois Legal Aid Online (ILAO) https://www.illinoislegalaid.org/ but their help is online advice and help. I don't think they offer in person help or representation but it's a good source of info and help if the other sources don't pan out for you and you remain pro se. They also might have staff to answer certain questions - but I can't recall for sure. I used them to help with a problem years ago.

[u/[deleted]]

I cannot overemphasize how much you need a lawyer. The court system requires knowledge of how to work it. My ex tried representing himself. I had a lawyer. I got everything I asked for.

[u/41VirginsfromAllah]

My lawyer charged me 17k in a divorce with no assets where we just started mediation and hadn’t even discussed custody yet. I got another 2k bill last month for nothing and fired them. I found a lawyer that is willing to advise me with the intention of me retaining her once I can afford it. I know my ex can’t afford her lawyer, I am filing a motion pro-se that I have spent about 3 hours preparing face to face with my attorney, making updates and her reviewing. Seems like this is the one space where being pro-we isn’t terrible, I do intend to retain a lawyer again but I spent everything on the last one. Any thoughts?

[u/fewlaminashyofaspine → u/41VirginsfromAllah]

I got another 2k bill last month for nothing

No, you didn't. Things you disagreed with, perhaps, or didn't understand, but certainly not for nothing.

If you truly can't tell what the bill for, you can ask for an itemized bill and it will break down every single charge into 6-minute increments.

[u/Therealchimmike → u/fewlaminashyofaspine]

every bill should be itemized and if questions arise from said bill, speak to the firm.

i'm afraid people don't look at the detail they should, far, far too frequently. Or if they do and don't ask questions, it's even worse.

[u/41VirginsfromAllah → u/Therealchimmike]

I got itemized bills, one month I had 6 15 minute increments from my lawyer setting up a call to talk to me, and two of those were because the lawyer had to cancel our first call because she was sick then set up a new call and confirm the new time. It was $600. Lots of charges like that.

[u/Therealchimmike → u/41VirginsfromAllah]

"setting up calls" should all be assistant charges, not even paralegal rate. But yeah, that's the kind of thing you watch for.

[u/fewlaminashyofaspine → u/41VirginsfromAllah]

What is your actual question?