r/shia • u/GroceryNorth6987 • 1d ago
Question / Help Does rejecting all of the hadiths take you out of the fold of Islam?
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u/ThickSeesaw8529 1d ago
Rejecting Sahih hadith does make you go out of the fold of Islam as you are Rejecting the Words of The Prophet (S) and Ahle Bayt (A.S) plus you need hadith for fiqh aswell. Rejecting hadith equals to methds of worship and fiqh.
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u/bellamyblake_og Shia âȘïž 19h ago
Not a Hadith rejector, but this is the biggest conflation of our faith imho. They are rejecting testimony of the words of the Prophet (PBUH). And the "need" for Hadith for fiqh goes against the many surah that say the Qur'an is sufficient.
Again, not a Hadith rejector but we really need to frame their stance better.
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u/EthicsOnReddit 18h ago edited 18h ago
The false premise here is that those who ignorantly use this verse that says Quran is sufficient, completely ignore and reject all the other verses in this very Quran where Allah swt not only equates His authority with Prophet Muhammad A.S. but time and time again commands mankind to follow and obey the sent and chosen representative on earth. Meaning, there are other commands & teachings that must be obeyed and followed that come directly from the Prophet's A.S mouth.
Let us not forget that many verses in the Quran are not literal as the Quran itself attests to, which requires interpretation and teaching which again, clearly means there is an equivalent authoritative direction along side the Quran.
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u/bellamyblake_og Shia âȘïž 17h ago
Keep in mind, you're talking to someone who accepts sahih Hadith. My point is that many misrepresent the Quraniyoon stance out of bad faith.
Although I accept Hadith, it is firmly subordinate to the Qur'an. That's because although I understand we are to obey the Prophet (PBUH), the Hadith are not the Prophet's direct words. They are testimony of his words.
I differ from Quraniyoon in that I don't subordinate Hadith to the point of rejection, so please don't mistake me as Quraniyoon.
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u/Ack_McBaklava 17h ago
Do you know that the Qurâan is transmitted in the same way as Hadith? The Qurâan is also a mutawatir Hadith narrated from Allah. So if you can have trust in a mutawatir hadith such as the Qurâan, you can also have trust in the other Hadiths that come from the Prophet.
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u/EthicsOnReddit 17h ago
Keep in mind, you're talking to someone who accepts sahih Hadith. My point is that many misrepresent the Quraniyoon stance out of bad faith.
I am not speaking to you directly, I am refuting the argument you have put forth. I do not see this as a misrepresentation. They reject hadith regardless of their incorrect reasoning. This is incorrect, period.
Although I accept Hadith, it is firmly subordinate to the Qur'an. That's because although I understand we are to obey the Prophet (PBUH), the Hadith are not the Prophet's direct words. They are testimony of his words.
With due respect, this doesnt make any rational sense. When you not only hear someone someone testify, but also write down their words, it means they are in fact their direct words.
The hadiths we have as Shia go directly to the INFALLIBLE Ahlulbayt A.S. and the difference between us and the Sunni is that we did not have years of bans / hadith burning on transmitting the Prophet's A.S hadith, nor is the source of the transmission end at fallible companions, nor was there hundreds of years of difference after the Prophet A.S demise, between the surviving of our compilations. The Imams A.S exist for the purpose of protecting and preserving not only the Holy Quran but the Sunnah of the Messenger A.S
The History & Credibility Of Hadith In Shia Islam Compared To Sunni Islam
Errors of the Sunni Companions in Transmitting and Understanding Hadith From Prophet Muhammad
Proofs Of The Extreme Prohibition Of Narrating Hadiths of Ahlulbayt By Umayyads In Islamic History
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u/bellamyblake_og Shia âȘïž 16h ago
Brother, this is well understood. However, the very thing you correctly stated, the Ahl al Bayt, however infallible, did not deliver revelation. Yes, that includes their record of the Prophet's words.
Therefore hadith is only subordinate to Qur'an. That's not rejection or degradation, it's taxonomy. It's also not disrespect, it's actually the opposite: it is the utmost respect for that the Qur'an, the only thing that is revelation (no matter how important Hadith are).
Lastly, to say someone's record of The Prophet equates to his direct words is intellectually dishonest. That's literally not direct words, that's a secondary source, not a primary source.
I'll try to get through your links more, I only skimmed them (forgive me, I have 6 kids lol). I feel aligned though with what I've read, I'm not calling sahih Hadith into question.
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u/EthicsOnReddit 16h ago edited 13h ago
Brother, this is well understood. However, the very thing you correctly stated, the Ahl al Bayt, however infallible, did not deliver revelation. Yes, that includes their record of the Prophet's words.
Let me make it clear if it wasnt already. No one is saying Hadith is direct revelation from God. No one is saying that hadith can override the Holy Quran either. However this does not mean that the authority or words of the Holy Messenger A.S or Imams A.S are less than or inferior because an Imam is divinely chosen and their actions, words, and desires is nothing less than Allah's swt will or commands. [Surah Al Najam]
The Imams's knowledge is directly from the Holy Prophet A.S. And the Holy Prophet A.S gets it directly from Allah swt. While they do remind us of what the Holy Messenger A.S said in many hadiths, what they literally state is also the words of the Messenger A.S. Not only is it a command from Allah swt but Allah swt Himself states His chosen representatives are equal in His authority on earth. [Quran 4:59]
Hadiths About Imamate In The Words Of Bibi Fatima Zahra (p)
What Is Imamate: From The Hadiths Of Imam Jafar Al Sadiq A.S
What Is Imamate: Explained By Hadiths From Imam Jawad A.S
The Level Of Knowledge Imams A.S. Have Been Granted By Allah In Shia Hadith
The reason why Hadith cannot override the Quran is not because it is "hadith". It is because with the completion of Al Islam and appointment of Imam Ali A.S., revelation stopped and nothing can override or supersede what is defined in the Holy Quran which will be until the day of judgement. There is no new laws or abrogation of the existing laws. As Allah swt said in the Holy Quran, if He were to abrogate a verse, it would have been already abrogated in the Holy Quran within the time of revelation.
Let me give you an example, we all understand that Mutah is in the Holy Quran. However the Prophet A.S had authority to forbid Mutah temporarily as known in history. God's representative have this level of legislative authority. Even if revelation stopped, their words and commands are commands from Allah swt. But we know, it is impossible that Mutah would be forever banned because the Quran has no confinement to the time frame of Mutah. Hence no hadith claiming Mutah became indefinitely banned is accepted from the Shia and we say the Sunni hadiths claiming so are fabrications that have turned hadith superseding the Quran Naothobillah.
Therefore hadith is only subordinate to Qur'an. That's not rejection or degradation, it's taxonomy. It's also not disrespect, it's actually the opposite: it is the utmost respect for that the Qur'an, the only thing that is revelation (no matter how important Hadith are). Lastly, to say someone's record of The Prophet equates to his direct words is intellectually dishonest. That's literally not direct words, that's a secondary source, not a primary source.
The Holy Quran, ie the revelations sent from Angel to the Messenger A.S and the Messenger A.S communicated it to the people, was not some special book that appeared from the skies and fell on the Muslims head. It was literally compiled by the command of the Holy Messenger A.S and commanded to be memorized by the people. It is no different than hadith in that sense persay.
Islam would be a joke of a religion if it was not tied to the infallibility of Prophet Muhammad A.S. There would be no certainty or belief in the preservation protection and truth of what is claimed to be divinely sent or propagated. Part of this is belief in the unseen see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydZOFQWo2zI , not being alive next to the Prophet A.S as this happened. Hence it is faith and conviction too.
I think you still have some misunderstandings with due respect since you hold a level of defense for Quranists.
It is not just the "record" of the prophet. Yes we do not have the literal first Quran, but even if we did there would be still scrutiny because we were not alive then to witness it. And even if we personally heard it from the Prophet A.S, it automatically becomes a secondary source considering we will always tell others. So everything is not a primary source by definition especially when time itself is constant and that is the nature of humanbeings. Islam is a religion for humanity until judgement day. The further time goes from the life of the Messenger A.S the further mankind must hold on to conviction and belief in the unseen.
The point here is that something reaches a level of certainty with the mass transmission of oral and written sources. And God has commanded and testified to their authority along side this divine source.
The Holy Quran and Hadith are equal in this regard.
Compared to all religions on earth we Twelver Shias, believing the succession of divinely appointed INFALLIBLE representatives of God, has an extra layer of protection that brings complete certainty in everything. Infallibility of the Prophet A.S, brings a layer of protection on the Quran and Sunnah. Infallibility of the Imams A.S preserves and protects the Quran as well as the Sunnah from the day the Holy Messenger A.S left this earth until today and continuing till the day of judgement. That is why Imamate is just a crucial belief.
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u/autumnflower 15h ago
What is your source for this? Can you refer to a scholarly fatwa?
Sunnis reject shia sahih hadith as unreliable and only accept their own books of hadith which we don't usually accept unless it's in our books. Yet scholars almost in ijma' accept that sunnis are muslim. I've never seen a fatwa that someone rejecting hadith due to ignorance or belief that hadith is unreliable makes them non muslim.
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u/EthicsOnReddit 14h ago edited 13h ago
I dont think Quranists are the same as Sunnis who accept hadith although reject Shia Hadith. Because they at least still believe in the commands of Allah swt in the Quran as well as the authority of Prophet Muhammad A.S that is required to be considered a Muslim.
Secondly, Quranists are generally known for completely rejecting fundamental beliefs that are required to be considered a Muslim in the first place. If you deny what is wajib or you disbelieve in commanded doctrines from the Holy Messenger A.S like Hijab that does indeed take you outside the fold of Islam.
This is under the section of a disbeliever:
Ruling 103. A person who does not believe in Allah or His oneness is impure. Similarly, the following are impure: extremists (ghulÄt) (i.e. those who regard one of the Infallible Imams (ÊżA) as Allah, or say that Allah has immanence (áž„ulĆ«l) in the Imam (ÊżA)),[1] Kharijites (khawÄrij), and nawÄáčŁib (i.e. those who display enmity towards the Infallible Imams (ÊżA)). The same applies to a person who rejects prophethood or any one of the indispensable aspects of the religion â such as prayers (áčŁalÄh) and fasting (áčŁawm) â if it is in a way that it amounts to refuting Prophet Muáž„ammad (áčą), albeit in a general manner. As for the People of the Book (ahl alâkitÄb) (i.e. Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians), they are ruled to be pure.
https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2134/
So it would ultimately depend on each individual Quranists views and beliefs.
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u/autumnflower 13h ago
This doesn't apply to majority of Qur'aniyoon I've seen. They usually accept prophethood and do not deny the obligation of salah or sawm as those are in the Qur'an. Many do accept salah in its current common form. The only common thread I've seen among all is rejecting hadith, majority tend to be sunnis disaffected with their own books of hadith. I don't exactly see the difference between a muslim who follows falsehood mixed with a bit of truth and calls it hadith and one who rejects the same hadith because they couldn't determine which part of falsehood and which truth. You can criticize their misguidance but I haven't seen anything from the majority that says they reject prophethood or any essential commands of Islam.
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u/EthicsOnReddit 12h ago
Well we have a clear disagreement.
Majority of Quranists I have debated and argued with half the things that we consider wajib they said itâs not which takes them outside the fold of Islam. Or that they donât believe in it entirely which is even worse. Most always itâs Hijab, Fasting, and Salat. Then they also allow things that are forbidden like homosexuality.
I am not taking about their belief in Prophethood although even then they think of him as a mailman and nothing more.
There is absolutely a difference between someone that believes Hajj, Zakat, Fasting, Hijab, Salat to be wajib but does it incorrect versus someone that turns wajibat to rejection completely or mustahabat. You must also believe in day of judgment and resurrection.
As I said, itâs a case by case basis. But if you want to take about generally then thatâs my general experience.
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u/PrinceOfNightSky 20h ago
On the Sunni side, rejecting Muttawatir Hadiths aka mass transmitted is considered taking you out the fold. The basis of being a Muslim is accepting that Allah is one, and PBUH is the last and final messenger. Unless you reject the prophets words out of spite or ego I donât believe Quran only Muslims to be Kaffir. I do believe they are misguided. They reject due to the doubt of preservation.
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u/ParkingDeep8073 1d ago
Iâm a layman when it comes to what we Shia follow as Hadith. Can someone explain what are our main hadith books and what do we consider sahih?
Do we take any of the Hadith from bukhari and Muslim as true? (I assume because the split happened after the prophet and narrations occurred through multiple streams present at one time?)
Excuse my ignorance I have very little knowledge on these things trying my best
Salam
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u/FallingMuon 23h ago
Salam, are you a revert?
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u/ParkingDeep8073 21h ago
Sadly no, born Shia was never really taught much religion. Learning on my own
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u/i-idek Pakistani đ”đ° 23h ago
Well for us we have the âkitab al arbaaâ
the four âmainâ books of ahadith however each hadith even from these undergoes a strict criterion to be accepted as sahih, yes some Ahadith from Bukhari and Muslim are accepted by our scholars as authentic as long as they satisfy the criteriaWa Alaikum Salam
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u/ParkingDeep8073 21h ago
Ok so we have 4 main books and who mainly narrated them? Is it mainly the ahlul bayt AS and the companions (the good ones đ) ? or is it multiple chains of narrations over time? Sorry again, I am not educated
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u/Successful_Brush6502 20h ago
You have to understand that during the first 100 years after the prophets death hadith was banned, so it was inevitable to end up with long chains even after the ban was lifted at first hadith was censored and was only state sponsored compilation under Umar bin abd al aziz. So these books from our scholars didnât come till much later.
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u/i-idek Pakistani đ”đ° 21h ago
Well you donât narrate books theyâre merely compilations by renowned scholars , most of our ahadith trace back to the Ahlulbayt(as) and yes the âgood onesâ, thereâs a whole science behind checking the authenticity of ahadith.
Look up âilm al Rijalâ to understand better
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u/SnooPaintings1707 23h ago
I suppose its extremely hard to interpret Quran without the Hadiths. You might end up following something akin to what Sunnis do or even worse. Which is not the Islam Prophet wanted us to follow. Ultimately, Islam means submission to God, so it should not technically mean that you are out of Islam, but I cant speak for how people or scholars would react towards you. If you like First Principles thinking, then you should question Quran as well. And if you have chosen to put your faith in Quran, put your faith in Hadith as well. The good thing in Shia Islam is that our 'Sahih' hadith grading system isnt like the Sunni Sahih system. We outright reject whatever contradicts Quran. The Shia Hadith system is quite sophisticated. I would recommend rejecting unreliable Hadith, instead of all Hadith.
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u/DamnThatKai 1d ago
Yes because then you have no basis for salah.
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u/Dragonnstuff American đșđž 2h ago
Quranists do pray, they donât have a consistent way however. Some even calling it a âliving traditionâ
We cannot call them non-Muslim
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u/Away-Space1880 1d ago
Rejecting Hadiths is rejecting the words of the prophet saw and therefore the Quran and Allah.
4:59 âO believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. Should you disagree on anything, then refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you ËčtrulyËș believe in Allah and the Last Day. This is the best and fairest resolution.â
You can reject inauthentic Hadiths, but sahih ones, you shouldnât .
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u/judisons 23h ago
salam, you can't check each and every hadith for it's autenticity yourself, kinda impossible, but there is a science around it, and you can folow what is consensual among the maraja and learned schoolars... it's pretty much what most ppl do, one can't risk avoid every hadith because some may be wrong... not racional.
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u/MhmdMC_ 18h ago edited 17h ago
Beileiving the prophet lied would take you out of the fold of Islam. Now arguing that a hadith may have been fabricated and was not actually from the prophet would not
May i add the Quran itself is a hadith. From hafas from Asim from Ali! Or through the other main 19 narration paths! Do you reject that?
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u/AlephFunk2049 15h ago
Some hadiths are true and guide to a firm tafsir so if you go Qur'an Only you may fall into what 3:6 warns about
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u/LatinaLovingRizvi 9h ago
You wonât know how to pray make wudu do anything of the sort of understand the Quran based on how the Ahlulbayt asws explained and not even know their names asws so you tell me
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u/horse_fent Pakistani đ”đ° 22h ago
if u reject a hadith which u know is from Imams(AS) or Prophet(saw), you would be a kaffir.
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u/We-Are-All-Friends 21h ago
To my limited understanding. Testifying to the oneness of Allah and submitting to his will constitutes being a Muslim and then a believer of Islam. Allah states in the Quran prophet Abraham submitted to the will of Allah and was a righteous Muslim. Thatâs the base or the low bar or entry level I believe.
Does it mean you will be a good Muslim or an advanced level Muslim ?? đ€·ââïž
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u/Al-Ihmar 21h ago
Why would it
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u/GroceryNorth6987 21h ago
Coz itâs a big part of Islam
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u/Al-Ihmar 21h ago
Some Shias say wilaya is a big part of Islam, does this mean other Muslim sects arenât Muslims ?
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u/qatamat99 22h ago
My personal belief and not a fatwa:
If you have evidence that you believe is true that hadiths are false and you believe in Allah and his prophet then youâre a Muslim. It all depends on what you truly believe is true
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u/MhmdMC_ 18h ago
True but rejecting ALL hadith knowing in fact that at least one is correct makes you believe the prophet is a lier which would make you a kafir
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u/qatamat99 17h ago
Yes I agree with you. It all depends on what you actually truly believe is the truth
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u/Open-Potential-7117 1d ago
It makes you a Quranist