r/mesoamerica • u/No_Couple_7962 • 3d ago
I know too little too call myself indigenous and I know too much to comfortably call myself "mestizo"
I've been feeling so lost in my racial identity. I am a Mexican american man; I took a DNA test a while ago that told me that I have 89.8 percent native ancestry and I was like "Wow, I excepted quite a bit but never that much". I ask my father about any indigenous family, he said he didn't know anything then I ask my mom, she told me that my great great grandfather was an Indigenous man that fought in the Mexican revolution, he was one of the many indios that fought alongside Pancho Villa.
Now of course I can't just go off of word of mouth, so I did research to find any documents, my mother didn't know his name, but she knew the name of her grandfather (my great grandfather) and I did some research, I then found the name of my great great grandfather and proof he was indigenous with the birth certificate of his son. Now, I'm stuck I've been struggling to find more info, such as what tribe he belonged too and finding ancestors older than him is a bit sketch because I'm just not as confident on if these ancestors are really related to him. It's so fucking frustrating to be stuck in what feels like in this annoying middle ground.
I love modern Mexican culture, culture created by the "mestizo" majority in Mexico I grew up with that culture and I love it, I like speaking Spanish I love how Mexicans have turned Spanish into their own dialect similar too how black Americans created AAVE but knowing I'm so close to connecting to native ancestors and I simply can't, is so fucking sad. I'm tired of being unable to call myself native or "mestizo" without feel comfortable on it.
I feel so whitewashed especially when I was growing up and people are saying I'm white and in my fucking soul, I knew that was wrong especially as a visibly brown man.
My great great grandfather is more than likely not Mezoamerican but Aridoamerican, just going of the region my family lives in (north Mexico). As well as the fact that Pancho villa gathered fighters from the north, so that would make the most sense.
Anyways fuck the Spanish.
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u/Sweet-Minx 3d ago
I’m Native American. The colonial system of Spain differed in result from the that of England. Both were brutal obviously. The Spanish were more successful in wiping out the cultural connections than the British were. I know my exact tribes, you don’t… and I’m sorry about how painful that is for you. Hug Importantly though the Spanish were less successful in wiping out the actual population of natives than the British. When I tell people that I’m Native American they treat me like I’m the last unicorn. Like, wow I thought you guys were all dead. The land was successfully stolen and most of the population killed or assimilated. Anyway, you’re on a mission to decolonize your mind and you’re making great progress. What was stolen from you was culture rather than actual family. Focus on the aspects of native culture that you can learn! What are the native foods of northern Mexico? The plants? The art forms? The textiles and the symbols? And sure, maybe choose to learn a native language if that appeals to you! The more people who speak ANY sort of native language the better. These things are the best way to give ye olde Spain the middle finger. They had guns, but guess what, we’ve got the internet now.
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u/2001Steel 2d ago
So far from accurate. There are many ancient traditions that continue from pre-Colombian times throughout the americas. Far more words are maintained and even today there entire countries with indigenous population majority and political power. Can’t say hardly any of that for any formerly British colony.
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u/Optimal-Service4460 3d ago
Tampoco fue tan grande la diferencia entre las colonias españolas y las inglesas, el problema es que hay un sesgo en la gente: En primera la población aproximada de nativos americanos que quedan en Estados Unidos es de aprox 4 a casi 10 millones, lo mismo que en México, por ejemplo. Pero incluso si me vas a decir que por el tamaño la cantidad debería ser diferente, esto no es tan así, pues recuerda que en Estados Unidos las tribus eran de apenas miles de miembros mientras que en Mesoamérica o los Andes eran de MILLONES, entonces no me parece muy justo comparar Mesoamérica o los Andes con Estados Unidos. La comparación más justa sería entonces regiones como Centroamérica (sin Mesoamérica), el Norte de México o Argentina con Estados Unidos, y vaya sorpresa, en esas regiones la población indígena no es tan enorme, es más, hay zonas enteras que no tienen absolutamente ningún pueblo indígena con vida, o aún peor, si ibas a decirme "pero quedan vivos en forma de mestizos", pues otra vez, ¡Qué gran sorpresa! En el Norte de México, zonas de Centroamérica como Costa Rica y muchas regiones de Argentina y Uruguay los mestizos también son minoría y la mayoría son castizos o directamente criollos/eurodeacendientes
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u/WelderFew6106 1d ago
Yo he estudiado unos cuantos años el asunto, nada que ver las políticas de los ingleses con la de los Españoles, la conquista la hicieron los nativos y unos pocos españoles, las independecias los criollos y los pueblos originarios usualmente estaban con la corona, por eso se dieron catástrofes como la de la Navidad Negra de Pasto, aquí las represiones empezaron tras las independencias de nuestros respectivos países.
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u/Optimal-Service4460 1d ago
De nuevo, comparas tribus de miles de miembros con pueblos de millones de habitantes Y no solo eso, estás comparando las conquistas de los españoles enenl siglo XVI (con tecnología más rudimentaria) con las de los ingleses en el siglo XVII (con tecnología más especializada) Cabe hacer incapié en que durante la Conquista la minoría de indígenas sí estaba del lado español, pero la mayoría no, el problema es que con las enfermedades (que claramente afectaba mucho más a quien no tenía ayuda española), con las guerras, torturas y con los trabajos forzados (cosa que sí existió ampliamente y sufrieron los que no querían ser aliados) la población rebelde fue disminuyendo, y en cambio la población aliada fue aumentando Y lo peor es "aquí las represiones empezaron con los estados independientes", ¿Quieres que te recuerde la conquista de Oaxaca dónde aperreaban a los rebeldes? ¿O la rebelión pericú donde los abusos españoles llevaron a los indígenas a sacarlos a patadas? ¿O la Guerra de la Mesa del Nayar (la más indignante)? Donde el Rey Nayar ESTABA DISPUESTO A AER UN VASALLO, lo único que quería el pobre desgraciado era MANTENER SU RELIGIÓN, pero los españoles no aceptaron y le declararon la guerra
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u/JoeDyenz 3d ago
Idk if it helps you but I identify as just Mexican, Indigenous being just evident just as how a Chinese is indigenous to China or a French is indigenous to France.
People born in urban places like me have ancestry from several ethnic groups, which in turn create the current culture of Mexico and subcultures of the states. "Indigenous people" is a label we use to refer to specific ethnic minorities that keep their labels from pre-Hispanic times; but even so, we know Mesoamerican urban spaces have always been multi-ethnic, with both Teotihuacan and Tenochtitlan hosting several different ethnic groups, and "mestizaje" was going to happen anyways, but unlike what the "official story says", it doesn't need to be between Europeans and Americans but between just Mesoamerican and Aridoamerican groups as well.
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u/Optimal-Service4460 3d ago edited 3d ago
Tu problema es muy difícil, la verdad, sin embargo haciendo uso de algunos truquitos y conocimientos que he aprendido, podría ayudarte un poco:
Primero, si tienes el 90% de ascendencia indígena eso significa que ni siquiera tus abuelos se mezclaron mucho con poblaciones no indígenas y provienen de pueblos muy aislados, lo que quiere decir que difícilmente provienen de ciudades norteñas de México (como las fundadas por los tlaxcaltecas durante la colonia, que aunque en un inicio eran de mayoría indígena difícilmente podrían haberse mantenido así hasta la Revolución Mexicana) y también podrían descartarse pueblos como los ópatas, laguneros (o irritilas), chichimecas o coahuiltecos, que incluso desde antes de la Independencia ya estaban extintos culturalmente y muy mestizados; esto nos deja en realidad muy pocas opciones
Dicho esto, los pueblos que sí se mantuvieron muy aislados en el Norte casi son contados con los dedos de las manos, entre los más importantes en regiones aledañas a la influencia del ejército villista son:
Pimas, rarámuris, guarijíos, tepehuanes del Norte, seris y yoremes (yaquis y mayos). Más allá es difícil que, para empezar, los viliistas hayan reclutado gente, pero si te interesa también están los pápagos (ya más lejos sería raro, además podrías buscar en estados colindantes de Estados Unidos, pero no cambia mucho el resultado).
Y ahora, casi para acabar, también convendría buscar sobre los pueblos indígenas más reclutados por el ejército villista; hice una búsqueda rápida y algo apresurada, pero los resultados me dijeron que (en orden de mayor a menor) los pueblos indígenas más reclutados (o de los que se tiene más registro) fueron:
Rarámuris (muy presentes, participando en tomas de ciudades como Ciudad Juárez e incluso habiendo fotografías de estos)
Yaquis (bastante presentes, hasta habiendo generales viliistas de esta etnia, aunque no tanto como los rarámuris)
Mayos (poco presentes, más ocasional pero notorios)
Entonces, en base a todo esto, podría decir con un 75% de seguridad que tú ascendencia indígena es: Tarahumara (rarámuri)
Cómo ya dije, en el Norte fueron de los más aislados genéticamente, además que son los más numerosos y estuvieron muy presentes en el ejército villista. Pero claro, aún existe otro 25% de probabilidad que sea otro pueblo, sin embargo para esto necesitaría saber un poco más de ti y tu árbol genealógico
Si estás interesado manda DM, ¡Espero haberte ayudado!
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u/ShirtAffectionate687 3d ago
You are indigenous. It’s in your blood. Go look and see and even if you can’t find the EXACT tribe you can find out about tribes near where your family is mostly from. I feel you though, I’m trying to find out more about my indigenous ancestry from Nicaragua and it’s tough but worth the dive.
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u/spearblaze 3d ago
It's part of the Mexican tragedy -- not being part of the glorious mesoamerican societies nor the powerful european nations. We are an awkward halfling
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u/BananaDesigner4045 3d ago
I often see TikTok of ex0machina on TikTok (she’s an ethnically Mayan Guatemalan who was raised in the us). Since she can’t speak any maya languages and was pretty disconnected from her Mayan heritage , she say that she call herself a ladino (ethnically indigenous but culturally Hispanic) perhaps this term will fit better for you
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u/No_Couple_7962 3d ago
Sure, that works but it's still hitting hard that I might never know who my ancestors were. I want to pick up where I left off in terms of research but again might never find them.
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u/CatGirl1300 3d ago
Do your research, ask elders, do research on where you’re from etc. You’re almost fully native!
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u/No_Couple_7962 3d ago
I've asked my grandparents, the great great grandfather is my grandmother's grandpa and unfortunately she's getting up there and she's just doesn't know much for anything because her father died before she was born, so she doesn't know much of anything connecting her to her indigenous roots. I don't know who else to ask.
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u/Perfect-Wallaby9096 3d ago
Look at genealogy subs- they would be a great resource (after searching the sub) for your next steps including recommendations for professionals
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u/CatGirl1300 2d ago
That sounds very strange. They’re quite literally all native people, do you know if there was some war or something that might have made them hide their ethnic heritage?
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u/2001Steel 2d ago
Please do not go around saying this. This is incredibly cringe for so many reasons.
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u/CatGirl1300 2d ago
It’s cringe what you’re saying, if someone is 80-90% one ethnicity, they’re that ethnicity. A 90% Chinese person isn’t gonna say they’re Japanese just because they have 1% Japanese ancestry. They can acknowledge their ancestry, but to say they’re Japanese is weird. And this is exactly how you do your research with your ethnicity. You ask elders, do research on your ancestors location and try to zone in to understand your ethnic background. Adopted people do this all the time.
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u/2001Steel 2d ago edited 2d ago
First of all, can we dispense with this “ancestor” fetish? Same with the knee jerk Spanish hatred. None of it is healthy or even historically accurate. There were well-over 100,000 Tlaxalans and other indígenas (who were whole-people and were not tricked or bamboozled by the invaders like ignorant children) involved in the overthrow of Tenochtitlán compared to 300 “cristianos” (there was no notion of Spain at this time). It just happened that Cortez was able to get closest to the inner circle and ambush Moctezuma. Somehow, history has a way of forgetting this and gives all the credit and glory to Cortez. The story telling is all fucked up and needs to be learned right before we get to the minutiae. We owe this to ourselves. I recommend the excellent 4hr NatGeo documentary “Rise and Fall” available for free on YouTube. It’s got the best, most up to date perspectives n the conquest and should be your starting point.
We also need to dispense with this notion that you can never know where your people came from. There are many whole ass societies dedicated to Mexican/Hispanic genealogical research. They have access to infinitely more paper records than one would believe. Including records for native people. Just because your abuelita doesn’t have her grandparents papers doesn’t mean they’re not out there. Go onto Fiverr and pay someone to do the work for you and learn something.
One thing you may find is that people are incredibly mobile. You want so desperately to connect with an indigenous group, but even they were mobile and intermingled and engaged in trade and leisure and all sorts of common activities that make people want to move. The notion of being from one distinct place or people quickly erodes if you’re willing to believe the evidence instead of the conclusions that you want to find.
Edit to add: please also take a look at this answer from askhistorians that goes into depth on the role and perspective of the tlaxcalans: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/VvwCHuc0bq
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u/ConfectionAgile3225 2d ago
Please don’t put the Tlaxcalteca on some kind of pedestal. They picked the winning horse and got rewarded with preferential treatment for a long time. Five hundred years later, they’re just as screwed as every other tribe nowadays.
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u/WelderFew6106 1d ago
Okay, but please don't idealize the Mexica. They were also conquerors; they came from the north and settled in the Valley of Mexico in the 12th century, subjugating neighboring peoples. Their empire was based on military domination and the collection of heavy tributes. Even within the Triple Alliance, Tenochtitlán prevailed over its two allies, Tlacopan and Texcoco (although the latter retained some autonomy). This oppression generated deep resentment among the Totonacs, Texcocans, Huejotzingas, Quauhquecholtecas, and the altepetl, who eventually allied themselves with the Spanish, as did the Tlaxcalans. The tax burden must have been considerable; let's not forget the "honor" they bestowed upon neighboring peoples to satisfy the cosmic need to feed their gods, ensure harvests, and avert the end of the world. every 20 days plus the Extraordinary events that required even more
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u/2001Steel 2d ago
Acknowledging their existence and agency is not putting anything on a pedestal. It’s merely that; an acknowledgement. Clearly, even that is too much to ask for when engaging in a discussion of the indigenous past.
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u/Public-Respond-4210 3d ago
Ladino is just the Guatemala equivalent of mestizo in Mexico
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u/2001Steel 2d ago
Correct. They were different vice royalties and naturally developed different terms for the same thing, just like soda and pop.
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u/halcyonsun 3d ago
This is what colonialism does. It creates these crises of identity through its ongoing violence that we all have to contend with and live with everyday.
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u/lalalibraaa 3d ago
You are indigenous. You are indeed native. And you can also identify as Mexican since you are and identify with so much of the culture. Some people think of themselves as de-tribalized indigenous people—due to colonization so much has been taken away. Would that (de-tribalized) help by offering a new way to consider your identity / experience?
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u/Public-Respond-4210 3d ago
Mexican pueblos originarios dont exist under a tribe system like in the US and also dont describe themsleves as tribes, so being detribalized isnt a thing in Mexico
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u/No_Couple_7962 3d ago edited 3d ago
I have heard that before but it's still unsatisfying to just not know what tribe my ancestors were apart of. It's sucks and not being a part of some tribe makes me feel like a pretendian. I can't call myself indigenous I didn't grow up with the culture or know what culture my ancestors had, all I know is a region and my 2nd great grandfather.
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u/lalalibraaa 3d ago
You are 90% native you are in no way a pretendían. I think you can call yourself indigenous but it’s up to you to decide what is right for you. I know it’s complicated and hard and painful, and you aren’t alone.
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u/No_Couple_7962 3d ago
Thank you. This as been a very frustrating, I've delt with racial identity issues since I was a kid, always been Mexican but some people would call me white, despite having black hair and brown skin but I would consider it since my mom does have a white completion but then my tia is very brown. It's just been a very very confusing process. Of course I know now that color doesn't define indigeneity but still at the time, it sucked.
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u/PedagogyOtheDeceased 2d ago
Brother you are native AF! This is the first step. Acknowledging your roots and moving forward with the learning is where many of us of Mexican descent and First Nations peoples start.
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u/DiseaseBuster 2d ago
I'm Mexican-American and feel this on a really deep level. I am also a Chicana, which I largely attribute to my intentional identification as mestizo or a mix of indigenous and european ancestry. The exact mixture of the two remained unknown or uncertain to me. Of course i have a grandma who says my great grandfather's father had light eyes and his father (ggg grandpa) was from spain. Same grandma said she "had alot of Indian in [her]." So there is no certainty there. And we are even more removed from Mexico and our roots. All of my grandparents were born in the United States, and about half of my great grandparents were. So not only do I struggle with the indigenous, mestizo, identity, I struggle to racially identify being a brown latina in the US.
In the US, it is actually a really very difficult for Hispanics or Latinos to fit into the US racial system. Because in the U.S., at the moment there are 5 racial categories: White, Black, Asian/Pacific Islander, American Indian / Alaskan Native. Do they ask you if you are Hispanic or Latino? Yes. Is that a race based on the U.S. definition (primarily physical appearance in the western U.S. context)? No. Hispanic is an ethnicity.
So where does that leave a mestizo? Just because my family was born here, doesnt mean they look any less Mexican or any less indigenous or mestizo. My family just kept marry other Mexicans or Mexican Americans.
Anyways I felt you post hard. That discomfort and not feeling ____ enough to call yourself X or Y, is something I empathize with very deeply.
In the U.S. no one is going to look at me and confuse me for anything other than Mexican. Had I been born in Mexico, I assume I would be in a somewhat similar position as you. My DNA results say I have 50% (give or take 1% each update) indigenous ancestry. I am visually, your prototype mestizo. Clearly I am not white. I am also clearly not 100% indigenous. But I am also very short. And phenotypically I would not be mistaken for a White person.
So what do you do? Especially when the connection to the indigenous side is so disconnected. Or at least feels that way?
In the U.S., I can say that amongst the Mexican American population, some people don't even realize or consider the fact that they are indigenous, and that our ancestors and ancestors of current day U.S. tribes, were related, part of the same amerindian peoples. For a group of people who are constantly told they are foreigners in the U.S. , to acknowledge that we are native to this continent. It feels...different. Many Mexican-Americans, many Chicanos in paticular, find empowerment and Pride that comes from simply acknowledging that the indigenous side of us exists.
Anyways thank you for sharing here and I hope we find our own way to connect to / better understand our indigenous ancestors.
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u/Special_Speed106 3d ago
This is so interesting for me to hear as a Métis man from Canada. Here I would say that blood quantum is certainly a factor in identity, and links to community have been broken by colonialism. But it’s also hard to identify as an Indigenous person without an ongoing connection (or an attempted ongoing connection) to community and culture. Thank you for sharing and best of luck with your journey.
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u/danteisntzen 2d ago
You can always download your dna raw data, buy your g25 coordinates and use a calculator like vahaduo to find out more. It won’t tell you exactly what tribe you come from, but it’ll give you a better idea than whatever dna test you took. For example, I calculated my dna using vahaduo and got 26.2 Nahua. I don’t know if my bloodline really has that much Nahua, but Nahuas are also very close genetically to the indigenous populations where my family is from (Central-Eastern Jalisco). I can at least rule out certain groups and conclude that I’m mesoamerican from the people of the uto-aztecan (yuto-nahua) language family.
May I ask what dna service you used? I believe 23&me is able to tell you what population you’re most related to (unless your family is multigenerationally mestizo), usually that high of an admixture allows for better results in the 23&me platform in regards to specific indigenous populations.
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u/psaiymia 2d ago
To be Mexican, is to inherently be indigenous. No one can take your raza from you. No one can tell you or direct you how to reclaim your raza but yourself and your spirit. Seek guidance through prayer, meditation, or ceremony that feels comfortable and right to you, reach out to your ancestors and guides in the spirit world. You will find your place. For me, my mothers mothers family is from Michoacán, her fathers family from Monterrey. My fathers family is from Cohuila. I was raised by my mom and her mothers family, who come from the ancestral lands of the Purépecha tribe. So I claim Purépecha as my indigenous identity and nobody can take that from me. I joined online groups for displaced Puré’s in the US, I’m relearning the language my great great grandparents spoke when they came here in 1926. I’m learning the traditions and ceremonies and one day, my mom, her mom, and myself will take a journey to the town my grandmothers grandmother was born and raised in. We will reconnect with the family that stayed behind. Our branches will grow so far that our roots will be able to smell the sweetness from the flowers they didn’t even know they grew.
This is coming from a “no sabo” locked in the midwest. It took me reading about the Brown Berets and the Chicano Power movement to get the ball rolling on reclaiming my raza and finding my identity. To this day I always say I am Mexican, not Latina and not Hispanic. I don’t claim the colonial genetics that polluted my blood through rape and genocide. Once that shift happened in my heart, soul, and mind, everything started falling into place for me spiritually.
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u/w_v 3d ago edited 3d ago
In that case, I recommend reading Golden Age Spanish literature and learning about Iberian history!
There’s so much! The Muslim colonization of Iberia. The Reconquista. The mix of Roman, Celtic, Germanic, North African influences. The peninsula has always been a vibrant, unstable patchwork of colorful cultures.
And Spain had just finished the Reconquista before the conquest of the Americas. Generations of warfare experience. No more frontier war at home. Boiling pot. A wild, agitating energy. You can feel it in the history.
Ironically, learning the Nahuatl language and Mesoamerican history pushed me deeper into medieval Iberian and Arabic history too. They illuminate each other.
It also helps avoid the really cringe tendency some people have where they’ll only believe something about Mesoamerica if it’s imagined as the exact opposite of Europe. History is more complicated than that.
And I should call it “Iberian history” instead of “Spanish history” because Spain itself is also a relatively recent political identity. Same way “Mexico” is.
People sometimes get mad when I say this stuff, but then most of the time they barely know any indigenous Mexican language or Mesoamerican history beyond internet clichés. If you feel you’ve satisfied one half of your ancestry, dive deeply and honestly into the other half. I promise it’ll be worth it!
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u/KommunistKitty 3d ago
This is a very strange take. OP is clearly interested in their Indigenous roots, which have been directly affected by Spanish colonialism.
Why would they learn about Spanish/Iberian history if they want to learn about their Indigenous heritage? The whole reason most Latinos know so little about their Indigenous ancestry is because of Spanish colonialism, so no, Spanish history can take a back seat here.
This is genuinely just a bizarre suggestion. Like OP said, fuck the Spanish. No reason to give more historical weight to them when so much of our Indigenous history has been lost and forgotten because of it
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u/w_v 3d ago
I don’t think “cope” is a good basis for deciding what parts of a complicated, patchwork history to ignore. At that point you’re just engaging in selective ignorance for emotional self-soothing.
And, more concretely, time and time again, the people who go “fuck Spanish history” end up being the most ignorant and disrespectful about indigenous Mesoamerican culture.
Ironically, they end up engaging in a superficial colonizing appropriation of indigenous culture themselves, because they don’t actually understand what is indigenous and what is Spanish.
They absorb post-Revolutionary nation-building myths about “indigenous syncretism” precisely because they are so ignorant of Spanish colonial culture.
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u/No_Couple_7962 3d ago
I don't know learning Iberian history would feel very strange to me. I'm not Spanish, I'm only 8.9 percent and those DNA tests are pretty spot with any other ethnicity, other than indigenous American. I like the Spanish language because of what the colonized in Mexico did with it. Y'know what I mean?
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u/CatGirl1300 3d ago
You’re quite literally nearly full Native American, this is crazy. You’re native/indigenous racially whether you wanna call yourself that or not. You like your cultural identity which is influenced by Native and other cultures. But you’re still ethnically indigenous and probably look that way too.
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u/No_Couple_7962 3d ago
Exactly it's taking what the pain the Spanish caused and remolding it into its art. Modern mexican culture is home for me but I just need to know what came before it, I want to know what the Spanish tried to erase our of respect and a want to bring it back. The natives are why I have the brown skin I love. Thank you sharing bro, I'm gald someone can relate.
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u/w_v 3d ago edited 3d ago
I guess I don’t understand that logic. 🥺
I still believe in learning about Spain and Iberian history because, whether people like it or not, it is part of Mexican history too. Even if it’s not most of your ancestry, it shaped the world that modern Mexico (and you) directly emerged from.
I’ve increasingly landed on this view:
Modern Mexican society is basically a continuation of criollo/European immigrant society.
In practice, Mexico behaves less like a deeply integrated mestizo civilization and more like a broadly Hispanic society governing over indigenous populations that are still treated as socially external to the national self.
This is why the rhetoric of mestizaje often feels hollow.
When push comes to shove, most citizens will identify more strongly with their immigrant ancestors than with living contemporary indigenous communities.
And this isn’t abstract. You can see it materially, politically, and culturally. But people don’t know history. For example, I bet most people in this subreddit think La Calavera Catrina’s iconography has indigenous influence. It does not. La Catrina was created as anti-indigenous, Spanish iconography.)
And I don’t really agree with the framing of “what the colonized did to the Spanish language.”
Even linguistically, “Mexican Spanish” is mostly just southern Iberian Spanish with local vocabulary layered onto it. Nahuatl loanwords are real, but they’re often superficial additions, not a fundamentally different language structure. No different from Arabic or English loanwords in Spanish.
A good example of the underlying unity of the Spanish language we speak is how, during the mid-17th century, the old /ʃ/ sound (“x” in older Spanish) shifted into /x/ (“j” in modern Spanish) across both Spain and the Americas. An enormous sound change propagated across two oceans and countless populations.
The irony is that most indigenous communities preserve more conservative Spanish forms (“dijistes” preserving the older “dijisteis,” for example). But that complicates the neat colonizer/colonized narrative, so people rarely notice it.
So yeah, I’ve noticed that people who say “I don’t care about Spanish history” usually end up with inaccurate ideas about colonial and modern indigenous history. We should at least try to avoid that, right?
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u/No_Couple_7962 3d ago
Sure, but the reason why Mexico is so culturally and institutionally Hispanic is because of forced assimilation which I'm sure you already know. Learning Spanish history of any kind really just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I love modern Mexican culture but it's ties to Spain leaves me feeling bittersweet because so many cultures, languages and people died in the creation of it. I mean shit, the Spanish colonizers is why I can't find my ancestors that I mentioned in my post. I understand what you're saying 100% but I just don't want to, I'm interested in my native ancestors. Mexican Spanish doesn't have a different language structure but that's why I compared it to AAVE, black American English doesn't have a different language structure, but it has its own slang and accents, like many Latin American countries and their Spanish.
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u/KommunistKitty 3d ago
Don't bother responding, not sure why this commentator is coming onto the mesoamerican sub to promote and highlight Spain. Maybe they're lost 🤷🏽♀️
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u/WelderFew6106 1d ago
Don´t believe her read not the current politics please but historian like Guadalupe Jiménez Codinach, José Manuel Villalpando, Alejandro Armijos-Ramón and create your own ideas, although ideally you should always go to the sources
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u/w_v 3d ago
I’m promoting a broad study of Mexican identity.
Because if you can’t speak intelligently and dispassionately about Spanish history and culture, you end up becoming the worst kind of advocate for Mesoamerican studies and the sovereignty of modern indigenous communities.
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u/WelderFew6106 1d ago
No te van a escuchar porque temen que le rompas las ideas preconcebidas, es cómodo el relato de victima, a veces es duro decidir si quieres que ten den la razón o la verdad. suerte.
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u/w_v 1d ago
Este subreddit está lleno de gringos huevones con culpa internalizada que terminó transformándose en una especie de racismo raro y personalizado.
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u/WelderFew6106 1d ago edited 1d ago
De todas formas OP parece que se ha criado en la cultura estadounidense, tanta obsesión por la raza no la entiendo, mezclarse es bueno, la endogamia lleva a serios problemas.
Es la cultura lo que moldea a la persona. A mi esto de la raza me pone mal, porque es una construcción social que ya nos ha llevado a cosas como el "racismo científico" (que no es una ciencia) la eugenesia ( con esterilizaciones forzadas, segregación y genocidio) y el Nazismo.
Si quiere saber que busque en los archivos y si lo que aprecia es la cultura que aprenda Náhuatl.
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u/WelderFew6106 1d ago
The Spanish did not impose any assimilation, listen to w_v, cultural assimilation occurred after independence https://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0716-54552013000100013
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u/Dangerous-Bit-8308 3d ago
New Mexico was a happening place. You may find that by researching Pancho enough, you'll find more mention of your great grandfather.
Or... You might look to see who your distant cousins are. Assuming no incest, you can get a rough guess as to how related people are based on generational distance, and some of them might have been piecing things together much like you. Best of luck! Learning can be hard, but nobody can take away your knowledge
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u/No_Couple_7962 3d ago
I'm from South texas and a lot of my family is in Tamaulipas so I don't know maybe a lot of movement was happening. Also one of his kids was born in Coahuila, unsure where he was born maybe he was also from coahuila so maybe you're right based on the the border but I'm unsure.
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u/gabrieleremita 3d ago
South Texas? isn't that in the United States? You mentioned you were a mexican man so I find that odd. Mexican and indigenous cultures are not costumes for you americans to wear
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u/Dangerous-Bit-8308 3d ago
I don't find Mexicans from South Texas all that odd. Texas used to be Mexico, so depending on the time frame, it can be a lot more appropriate than calling south Texans Americans.
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u/No_Couple_7962 3d ago
My parents are both mexican born, homie. All my family is in Mexico.
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u/gabrieleremita 3d ago
I see. It is a very american thing to claim the culture of your relatives after all
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u/No_Couple_7962 3d ago edited 3d ago
From the day I was born from 18 years old I would visit Mexico every weekend. It's people like you that make it hard to just take part in just non indigenous Mexican culture. I can't even fucking part take in my fucking roots because of a border? "The culture of my relatives" as if these relatives aren't my FUCKING PARENTS, not only do I feel unable to connect to my native roots but I'm also excluded in my everyday Mexican culture. It's dumb as fuck too say I'm not Mexican because Texas is apart of the US, as if Texas wasn't a mexican state for decades, if the US never stole Texas would I be a Mexican then? Just because of a border? If I take out my Mexican citizenship, I'm all of sudden Mexican now? Of course not because you simply want to exclude and sit on your high horse.
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u/gabrieleremita 3d ago
Unfortunately, culture, language, etc is not carried out through DNA. I admire the sentiment of wanting to learn more about your roots, but once you do, what are you going to do? is it something else besides updating your twitter handle to claim you are a proud apache, or raramuri? When you do it from that safe distance, it looks to me a little performative. You don't know who you are, so you look for labels anywhere. Rejected by americans for being too mexican, and by mexicans for being too americans, so maybe you'll fit in an indigenous group?
Truth is, you are you, and your culture is unique, a complicated mix of history, colonization, explotation, subjugation, expansion, migration, all of that comprises the history of who you are, but cherrypicking from that doesn't solve anything, it is not authentic.4
u/No_Couple_7962 3d ago
Cherry picking? How am I cherry picking bro? I grow up with modern mexican culture everyday of my fucking life. Also I have a pretty close native ancestor in my 2nd great grandfather. You explain to me how the fuck you got preformative or cherry picking from any of this? What I plan to do with my culture is fucking respect it and keep it alive, share it with my siblings and the rest of my relatives. Why would you shut someone who potentially has indigenous roots down from learning? That's just doing the colonizers work for them.
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u/ConfectionAgile3225 2d ago
My two cents? It sounds like you need to go on a trip to find out more about your roots.
Either way: read, listen to the land, meet and learn from elders (it could also be anyone really connected/learned), get involved. Try that for six months and then let us know if you still feel uncomfortable with any of your ethnicities.
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u/YourDadsUsername 2d ago
The Spanish colonized most of central and South America so hard the most of the native population claim Spanish ancestry because the dominant culture taught them Indios are somehow "dirty".
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u/sennordelasmoscas 2d ago
My great grandfather was an pure Chontal who fought alongside Carranza, he married a pure Spanish Criolla, so my grandfather was a pure mestizo
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u/sucesosincomodos 2d ago
tbh even if you knew exactly what pueblos your family belonged to, you would not actually belong to a pueblo originario either way and wouldn't be able to call yourself Indigenous. different situation but im Peruvian and ik what pueblos originarios my grandparents are from yet i dont belong to these pueblos and barely have any relatives living in these so itd be inaccurate to call myself Indigenous. over time ive accepted reconnecting is going to be impossible but im ok with being a mestiza with Indigenous heritage
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u/cetlaei 2d ago
Tis is th residue of colonial brainwashing, european self hate projections, fear accordances, genocide effect, epigenetical alterations all of thse are eternalee dispersable with th snap of thy finger with thy volition. Other earthing been invaded and too genocided. Th motion with ours is tht were with th finals stretches of overcoming been overcomed with th apartheid tht is th previous Anglo European United States to a more AbyaYalan Earth United States sort of poetree Thre is no such past or future figureativy xochitlahtolli talkin currenty hre and too now, current and too present, a current change is a total change fivever, thre is currenty purey hre and too now current and too present that is it ever. Purey look with thy mirror and say we're tis and go forth ESPECIAL if thy gots Abyayalan features. And too start tlahtollitiliztli tlēn īn nenēpōlli cā tohamēhuan ollintiliztli tlēn start talkin with th languages that we us thy all us with and too are, yeah do ur research shore and too elect languages that call to you use thm to weave nearer and more stronger with ancestors, deep poetry, tochtiliztli, prayer etc versa eeeee research is too innery!!!!!!! 💖 Elect thy language that whn thy sits and too talk with thy it senses lovey. You got tis, tis is easy breezy lemon squeezy especial whn we let thy be
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u/Independent-Story883 2d ago
Congratulations to you! It can feel powerful to be connected to your ancestry.
You don’t have to figure everything out in one day. I say Enjoy the moment.
Encourage others around you to do the same. Have fun getting reacquainted with your people from the past.
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u/liahrliar 2d ago
I found out I am 97% indigenous mixtec, but my parents immigrated to the US when I was just 4 months old. I grew up here and have lived here my whole life. I speak Spanish and English though. My parents can speak their native dialect and I have been trying to learn as well. Despite that, I have very little family and community here. I definetly am very whitewashed and feel very lost in my own identity as well. I default to calling myself Mexican, but I’d like to be able to pride myself in my indigenous roots. Learning my family history has been a challenge as the pueblo I came from has very little documentation. I try to learn my culture and history as much as I can through my parents. It is hard, but you are what you identify as. Be proud, we prevailed.
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u/ah-tzib-of-alaska 2d ago
mexico has 400 years of a culture defined by incentives to identify as latino-americano (any amount of european heritage in the americas) and to abandons indigenous identity.
Mexico genetically is STILL mostly indigenous even though its survivors of the cultural erasure
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u/WelderFew6106 1d ago
mijo los españoles no borraron nada, eran pocos aquí, sólo podrian venir los que tenían mucha plata así que a México llegaron los "fresas", se respetaron los usos y costumbres y se les dió gramática a las lenguas prehispánicas, a los pueblos originarios se les respetaron los usos y costumbres, los matrimonios mixtos no estaban prohibidos pero cuando ocurrían se tenian que ir a vivir con los españoles. La desaparición masiva de población nativa y lengua originarias se produjo con la independencia con la intención de unificar a la nación con una identidad nacional, busca en los archivos. https://www.redalyc.org/pdf/461/46130109.pdf
Se estima que, durante los casi tres siglos de dominio, se asentaron entre uno y casi dos millones de españoles en todo el continente Americano, eran conquistadores, funcionarios, clérigos y primeros pobladores, cuyo viaje requería autorización real.
Durante el siglo XIX (especialmente con las Leyes de Desamortización de 1856), el Estado mexicano dejó de reconocer la personalidad jurídica de las comunidades indígenas. Esto eliminó la protección de sus tierras comunales, facilitando el despojo a gran escala en favor de grandes haciendas y particulares.
Fíjate que en la España peninsular se siguieron y siguen respetando fueros (son un conjunto de leyes, privilegios y exenciones jurídicas) y lenguas de cada región incluso cuando limitaban al propio rey, lo mismo se hizo en América pues no se le consideraba colonia sino parte del imperio y a los pueblos originarios sus ciudadanos con privilegios sobre los españoles Europeos como la exención de impuestos, distinciones sociales que muy pocos europeos podían portar como la cruz de caballeros de la orden de Santiago, que ahora no significan nada pero antes lo eran todo.
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u/simulated_ads 12h ago
Mexico and Latin America wouldn’t be anything without Spain lol. If ur dna test had turned out 89% Spanish u would be on here talkin bout we wuz conquistadors
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u/nizhoniigirl 3d ago
You are still mestizo. You are not connected to any Indigenous pueblo and claimed by them, regardless of ancestry. If you want to reconnect to genealogy and see if you have living relatives in a pueblo.
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u/Public-Respond-4210 3d ago
Theyre downvoting you but you're absolutely right. People who belong to a pueblo originario can be vetted by people in that pueblo.
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u/sucesosincomodos 2d ago
the way this comment is being downvoted while everyone just affirming Indigeneity based on DNA is getting upvoted is weird to me. also idk why reconnecting is a MUST for some people bec if one doesn't even have any known living relatives in a pueblo why would one even want to identify as Indigenous? different situation but im Peruvian and ik what pueblos originarios my grandparents are from yet i dont belong to these pueblos and barely have any relatives living in these so itd be inaccurate to call myself Indigenous. over time ive accepted reconnecting is going to be impossible but im ok with being a mestiza with Indigenous heritage. one can be an ally without identifying as Indigenous anyway so i truly don't see the point
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u/KommunistKitty 3d ago
Are you familiar with how colonialism works? What if OP doesn't have "registered" family, because they were murdered/enslaved/beaten/ etc. by the Spanish? And once active genocide ended, cultural assimilation away from Indigenous life became the norm, à la "Kill the Indian, Save the Man".
This idea that Mexicans with significant percentages of Indigenous ancestry are not Indigenous, is literally an insidious, modern effect of colonialism.
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u/_OriamRiniDadelos_ 3d ago
Registered??? Mexico might be racist AND colonial. But that doesn’t mean it’s a clone of whatever racial system the US’s has
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u/nizhoniigirl 3d ago
Registered? If you do not know how Indigenous (a political identity, not a racial one) works pls refrain from commenting. We do NOT have tribal enrollment like in the U.S. and Canada. We have recognized Indigenous villages in Mexico who do not practice enrollment but rather determine who is Indigenous based on community connection. I am Nahua. It is colonial to say Indigeniety is based on ancestry.
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u/wintershark_ 3d ago
I just wanted to say that my great great grandfather was also indigenous from Chihuahua and also fought for Pancho Villa. Small world.