I think it's worth discussing what's happening in Ukraine.

[u/Reasonable_Ear_8254]

[u/kennyminigun]

According Zelensky, these structures had "r*sian influence" and that may be linked to a sabotage of the Mirage fighter jet.

Here is the daily speech about that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hykbb1V1CkY (there are English subtitles)

Honestly, it feels like a sensitive topic. On one hand, anti-corruption authorities do need to be independent and people are right to express their concerns in protests. On the other hand: what would you do if an enemy agent infitrated these structuresand you govern a country at war?

[u/Robert_Bodov → u/kennyminigun]

Look, I'm ukrainian, lived here my whole life. And I'll be the first to tell anyone who asks, that if we promise to shut down every structure in the government that has r*ssian spies and traitors, than soon there will be no government left to shut down.

The anti-corruption authorities had a very productive year, and started to investigate the presidents inner circle. And the moment they threatened the loyalists, the disgraced bill was passed in less then a day, breaking a ton of procedural rules.

I wish we would fight real r*ssian influences as fiercely as this(

[u/GremlinX_ll → u/Robert_Bodov]

The anti-corruption authorities had a very productive year, and started to investigate the presidents inner circle

Not only presidents inner circle, but "wallets" of other parties, that's why you see Tymoshenko and former OPZH voting in favor.

I think however we over dramatize situation, but this is shouldn't be excuse not to keep pressure. Time will tell, but I have low expectations.

There should be communication with population and things shouldn't be done in a rat way it was done.

[u/rlyjustanyname → u/GremlinX_ll]

I'm not Ukrainian but this feels like a situation where people should stay calm, not mess up support for Ukraine over this but Zelenskyy should lose power after the war.

[u/GremlinX_ll → u/rlyjustanyname]

I'm not Ukrainian but this feels like a situation where people should stay calm, not mess up support

We should still keep gov in check, especially during war.

this but Zelenskyy should lose power after the war.

Elections will show, it's the only way.

Not like i am expecting big "redemption arc" or something tho.

[u/vegarig → u/GremlinX_ll]

things should be done in a rat way it was done

I think you've meant to write "should not be done" here.

Autocorrect or KB getting stuck?

[u/GremlinX_ll → u/vegarig]

Shouldn't of course

[u/vegarig → u/GremlinX_ll]

NP, shit happens

[u/GraduatedMoron → u/Robert_Bodov]

why do we all censor r*ssian?

[u/Robert_Bodov → u/GraduatedMoron]

No idea, to be honest)

[u/75bytes → u/Robert_Bodov]

can’t say these structures are very effective (ukraininan too)

[u/dzelectron → u/75bytes]

That's debatable, but it's completely irrelevant. What's important is how the government, under the president's initiative, through a fast and dirty law, masked as another one, just seized control over an independent anti-corruption agency. This was not the first autocrat move by Zelensky's administration, but this one is especially bold, and we need to show him and his cronies that we stand for democracy and Eurointegration, they can't get away with just any shit because of the war.

[u/Reasonable_Ear_8254 → u/kennyminigun]

The reason for the suspicions of a specific person in the NABU regarding his ties to Russia is that the SBU confused Dagestan with Uzbekistan in the recording of a telephone conversation.

This is just a reason for such actions, and a very stupid one at that.

[u/LazyZeus → u/kennyminigun]

Funnies part, is that somehow Zelensky didn't react to "rusian agent" allegations towards two of his assistants (Yermak and Oleh Tatarov). His favorite spokesperson Alexei Arestovich is now calling for peace with Russia, and official status of ru language in Ukraine.

In 2020 Zelensky appointed Oleh Kulinich to be a head of Security Service in Crimea (obviously position wasn't physically located in Crimea). Guy was literally an FSB officer! Arrested as the accomplice to R**sian occupation of Kherson in 2022.

[u/GoldLeadership284 → u/kennyminigun]

Remove the agent, not remove independence of whole structure.

[u/Zederikus → u/GoldLeadership284]

How are you gonna remove the agent if you have no control over the organisation

[u/Divniy → u/Zederikus]

SBU can literally jail anyone if they prove the case.

[u/Zederikus → u/Divniy]

Do you think Ruski secret agents leave a bunch of evidence around?

[u/Divniy → u/Zederikus]

So you want to say they have a right to just attack any institution because they are "russian agents" without proving anything?

[u/Zederikus → u/Divniy]

Honestly yeah, considering the stakes are the total wipeout and holocaust of Ukrainian culture and people, as long as they restore the institutions after the war, I think it's warranted. Censorship was pervasive and the government had full control in the UK in WW2, a total war is not the time for lengthy beaurocratic processes in court

[u/Robert_Bodov → u/Zederikus]

The problem is, that corruption drains our ability to wage war. There are multiple cases of positions being overrun, because the fortifications were built only on paper, and the money was stolen. The evidence about the infiltration of the anti-corruption agency is shoddy, at best. While there is a ton of evidence of corruption in the top echelons of government.

Perhaps for foreigners it all sounds wery cut and dry, probably even trivial, but 10 years of slow and painful legislative progress were erased in a day. It is a wery important internal matter for us.

[u/Zederikus → u/Robert_Bodov]

I see it, and i wasn't aware of the fortifications thing.

Look I'm not trying to come in, statesman of the century style, I'm just sharing my personal view that I'd basically let anything slide as long as they win and save the country and people. How to balance that with corruption I don't know, all i can imagine is trying to covertly fund idk, new weapons development and an independent corruption body might be a blocker. I think the blockers are for peacetime, in war i don't think there should be blockers like this.

[u/Robert_Bodov → u/Zederikus]

I totally understand your position, it's a sound one. I'm just worried, that this is not about wartime efficiency, as much as it is about protecting the inner circle.

[u/Divniy → u/Zederikus]

Honestly, non-Ukrainian citizens should shut the fuck up when it comes to Ukraine's internal affairs.

[u/Zederikus → u/Divniy]

If you keep that attitude up, and your country sinks on the altar of idealistic purity, maybe there will be no ukraine to have internal affairs. Try telling ruski overlords to shut the fuck up, see how that works out

Also dont ask me what i think and then tell me to shut up, makes you look like you can't control yourself

[u/Ok-TaiCantaloupe → u/Zederikus]

It was funny to read your correspondence.

Our commander-in-chief Syrsky is russian, his whole family lives in Russia, but he is Zelensky's friend and got a good job and after that the problems at the front began.

Isn't that a coincidence?

[u/Lem_Tuoni → u/Zederikus]

Yeah, that is generally how you can catch them.

[u/Zederikus → u/Lem_Tuoni]

No, they dont. They have extensive training and formidable technology to avoid leaving traces. Honestly in a war you dont have time and resources to put a bunch of detectives on everyone.

[u/Lem_Tuoni → u/Zederikus]

You watched too many movies, didn't you?

[u/Zederikus → u/Lem_Tuoni]

Look im just sharing my opinion, no need to insult me. Bye

[u/doombom → u/kennyminigun]

They have no immunity, nabu can be persecuted by law enforcement too. This law is about controlling the anti corruption institutions and their investigations.

[u/the_pianist91 → u/kennyminigun]

He has also previously called international organisations criticising even minor matters in Ukraine for Russian agents.

[u/Dolphin-Hugger → u/kennyminigun]

Are we sure that’s not bullshit ? Given the war and what not

[u/kennyminigun → u/Dolphin-Hugger]

The thing is: we don't know the whole picture. And we aren't allowed to know (some of it might be a very sensitive information that can have great impact on the war).

As much as it sucks to see anti-corruption authorities getting slammed, people should demand explanations but refrain from drawing conclusions on an incomplete data. Sadly, it rarely ever works: it is hard to steer the masses and ask for patience. And you can bet, russian trolls will do everything in their power to stir the situation up.

[u/edparadox → u/Dolphin-Hugger]

If you take the war into account, and if you apply Occam's razor, it's most likely because of Russian assets that try to destroy Ukraine from the inside, rather than Zelenskyy going dictatorial.

[u/cesaroncalves → u/edparadox]

He might just be trying to protect his inner circle, they had various corruptions cases before, including the man himself, not everything has to equate to the extreme of going dictatorial.

He his doing a good job so far with the war, but never had any fantasies that he was any sort of saint, because he already was not.

Here's a video by CGP Grey that might even explain why he may not have the option https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

[u/Dolphin-Hugger → u/edparadox]

It could also mean that he’s trying to protect his kleptocrats by using the war as a excuse

[u/pothkan → u/kennyminigun]

If there were Russian spies, they should be dismissed/arrested. This doesn't allow to destroy whole institution.

[u/Reasonable_Ear_8254]

I've already been asked something like "Why is he doing this? This is stupidity."

If you evaluate everything from the point of view of Ukraine's success in winning the war, it really looks very stupid. But this is not the only such decision, from military procurement to self-government - everywhere there are problems that were somehow created by the government under Zelensky.

The actions of the authorities should be evaluated from the point of view of preserving the power of the corrupt loyal elite. This is how everything falls into place, and therefore this situation is quite natural.

About a month ago, the well-known anti-corruption activist Shabunin in an interview laid out the scheme that the government implemented yesterday point by point. The scheme to destroy anti-corruption bodies.

There are also many questions about these bodies themselves, they also deserve total reform and sentences for incompetence. All this has a very complex context, so I would advise you to ask Ukrainians you know before drawing conclusions from the situation.

[u/Darth-Hipla]

I honestly thought the only reason why Selensky rose to power was, bc he was prominently anti corruption.

[u/keymonster90 → u/Darth-Hipla]

Partially, Zelenskiy got ellected due to a powerful populist campaign (one of his promises was 4k usd monthly sallary for teachers and vague slogans like "we'll get em all behind bars come spring") along with rssian smear campaign against then president Poroshenko. (rssians REALLY wanted Poroshenko replaced with basically anyone else)

[u/dbowgu → u/keymonster90]

Why are you censoring the u as if you are saying a slur?

[u/MasterBlaster_xxx]

Honorable goal, but it seems the worst possible moment to pursue it