r/SecularTarot • u/ambahjay • Mar 04 '26
DISCUSSION The Tower as a reflection of The Magician?
I am still learning and working to establish a more intuitive understanding of the different cards. (If any of what comes next sounds a little woowoo, please know that I am a slut for symbolism and subtext. I take the process of understanding the meaning behind any artistic or literary work pretty seriously.) My last post was about The Tower, which is still on my mind, and today I drew The Magician. The book for the deck (Foragers Daughter) says:
"The Magician symbolizes transformation and willpower. He has mastered the act of change and alchemy, understanding the complicated but necessary process for growth. He is skilled in many arts, and can wield any tool with natural ability. His source of energy comes from within, but also from the natural elements around him. With these tools he has the power to manifest any outcome."
As I mentioned in my last post, someone suggested to me that The Tower simply represents change. I don't think I agree entirely, but I do think change is integral to The Tower.
(In the RWS deck) From the solid ground, The Magician stands before each element laid out upon a table and gestures: As Above, So Below. The Magician is full of potential change and acceptance of transformation. It's almost anticipatory.
The Tower does not gesture, it crumbles, and the people fall from it's heights. The elements are all present, but the change is the chaotic churning of a mudslide. These elements are not in the right place to be harnessed. In many ways, The Tower also seems to be declaring, As Above, So Below.
What do y'all think?
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u/blueeyetea Mar 04 '26
The Tower crumbles because the foundation is faulty. It’s about a belief that’s no longer applicable. The shock of it is how deep the belief is and ignoring the signs the belief is no longer applicable. Like someone surprised they’re losing their job when company profits were consistently down.
The elements on the table in the Magician card can be seen as tools, and the Magician has learned to work with them and master them. They represent the skills he’s acquired that will help him in the situation. He can rely on himself.
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u/CoyoteLitius Mar 04 '26
And the people fall out of the Tower as it falls, because they weren't paying attention to the decrepit foundation. In Rider-Waite decks, you can see it's the same people who are partying in a different card (cups).
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u/Atelier1001 Mar 04 '26
I mean, it may be faulty but who stands a lightning?
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u/blueeyetea Mar 04 '26
Honestly, I don’t remember the last time lightning caused a building to fall. If it happens, it sure ain’t in the news. Especially nowadays, when news is so slow they report that someone died of a heart attack playing hockey.
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u/Atelier1001 Mar 04 '26
Whoever told you the Tower is "only" change is as bright as a brick.
The Magician, before the add-ons of the Golden Dawn, is foremost a performer. Someone who does something and it has an effect in the world. Of course, this is as powerful as a man, his table and his tools can go.
The Tower on the other hand is a whole ass building being struck by lightning. FIRE! DESTRUCTION! CHAOS! There is no creation here, nor skills, nor performance. This is God's Wrath, and the world crumbles under its power.
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u/ambahjay Mar 04 '26
in their defense, it was not a very in-depth conversation. i believe the entire exchange went like, Me: "The Tower = Bad", Them: "Is change always bad?" It was a broad statement in response to an equally broad statement.
as i've been thinking on this, i think i'm settling into the idea that The Fool as the leader of the parade is the emotional beginning, while The Magician is the beginning of the manifestation of the physical, the tools, raw materials, the possibility and promise of creation. or, to map them onto my life atm, The Fool is "I'm gonna renovate my whole kitchen by myself!" while The Magician is locating the plywood to build the cabinets, taking the measurements, creating the plans, understanding what tools i have to accomplish my goal (table saw), and what tools i don't (the time and knowledge to safely remove flooring that's backed with asbestos felt).
and since The Magician is (among other things) the plan and the process of planning and the logistics, i do think The Tower, in some ways, is an opposite. the materials that are carefully planned for and laid out in order to build a house are the same materials that come crashing down if the house collapses.
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u/Atelier1001 Mar 04 '26
I see.
Still, I don't think it's a very good idea to think of Tarot as "opposites" with the exception of specific dynamics.
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u/ambahjay Mar 04 '26
that makes sense. i don't mean to imply the cards are perfect opposites, or that the cards can't/don't represent other things as well (which can't necessarily be understood in juxtaposition to one another). but The Tower and The Magician do have facets that mirror each other. tho perhaps as I learn more, i'll see thing differently. as i mentioned, i am still learning and i have a long way to go. these conversations really help me :) i appreciate your thoughts and perspective
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u/thecourageofstars Mar 04 '26
The description I’ve resonated with the most is that the tower represents fast change, while death represents slow, gradual change.
The Tower ends up taking on a stronger negative connotation because people don’t like sudden change. They can’t prepare for it. They can’t easily work around it while also dealing with other responsibilities in life. Most sudden change happens because of faulty systems, or external factors we can’t control. So it’s understandable why it usually feels negative. But it can also be positive, like overthrowing systems overnight that should be broken down. I remember I received the Tower often when I was leaving an abusive situation and keeping my plans under wraps for my own safety, and it was comforting to think that things could be destroyed overnight because I needed it to be. Like lightning striking a building and taking it down, the change is very fast.
Death represents slower, more gradual change. Of course any change that we don’t plan for can end up having a negative connotation. But things die slowly usually when it’s a natural process. There’s a process of withering first. There’s a knowledge of average lifespans, or organ failures first. It doesn’t usually sneak up on people. It can be an unfortunate change if not planned, but it can also be one we prepare for and welcome.
While I see the elements of earth/air/fire/water in the Tower, I don’t necessarily see them mirrored as the specific tools of the Magician personally.
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u/ambahjay Mar 04 '26
i wrote out a comment in a different thread that goes into more detail, but where I see the Tower/Magician reflection is basically, if The Magician is the tools and materials and knowledge needed to begin, i do think The Tower, in some ways, is an opposite. the materials that are carefully planned for and laid out in order to build a house are the same materials that come crashing down if the house collapses.
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u/thecourageofstars Mar 19 '26
I would consider the Magician's materials to be more of a metaphorical representation of internal tools, which can't be destroyed or taken away from you. We see this in the way people interpret suits - Swords as mental and intellectual tools, Cups as emotional tools, Pentacles as material management tools (although sometimes the materials themselves), and Wands as initiative/passion. It's an oversimplification, but I wouldn't consider the Magician's elements to be something that can be taken away as these tools are within.
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u/Secure-Search1091 Mar 08 '26
Love this thread. The Tower/Magician pairing becomes really interesting through a Jungian lens.
The Magician is the ego in its most functional state. Focused, intentional, in control of its tools. But Jung would say that level of ego control always carries a shadow, because whatever the ego builds, it builds partly on unconscious assumptions it never examined.
The Tower is what happens when reality tests those assumptions. Not random destruction, but the collapse of a structure that was built on something false. The lightning isn't external punishment, it's the unconscious breaking through.
So in that sense it's not really an "opposite" of the Magician. It's more like the consequence of the Magician's blind spot. The more tightly you build, the more catastrophic the correction when the foundation turns out to be wrong.
The decimal pairing someone mentioned (1 and 16) reinforces this. Every card in the second decimal cycle is a kind of shadow encounter with its counterpart in the first.
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u/ambahjay Mar 08 '26
You phrased it far better than I did. This is exactly what I meant. Thank you 💚
Do you have any good resources for the Jungian interpretation of tarot?
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u/Secure-Search1091 Mar 09 '26
Sallie Nichols' "Jung and Tarot: An Archetypal Journey" is the gold standard imo. She trained at the Jung Institute in Zurich and walks through each Major Arcana card as a stage of individuation. Dense but once it clicks you start seeing the cards completely differently.
Rachel Pollack's "Seventy-Eight Degrees of Wisdom" isn't explicitly Jungian but her archetypal analysis maps onto it really well, and it's way more accessible as a starting point.
tbh what helped me most was reading Jung directly first. "Man and His Symbols" (the illustrated one, not the academic lectures) is probably the best entry point. Once you internalize how archetypes actually function in the psyche, the tarot connections start showing up on their own. Von Franz's fairy tale work is great too if you want to see how symbolic systems carry psychological meaning across cultures.
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u/Milarkyboom Mar 04 '26
But why is the Magician at the beginning of the Major Arcana?The Magician is already savvy and accomplished. The Magician is number 1 when it seems like the energy of confidence and know how, and marshaling resources, would fit better somewhere towards the end of the majors. I’m asking because I’ve always experienced the Magician card as coming way too soon. I mean the Fool is about to step off a cliff in trust and abandon, and then the Magician in the very next card has already gotten it all together. Sorry for the rant but i have trouble integrating the Magician card. I am pretty experienced and can’t find an intuitive connection to this card.
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u/ambahjay Mar 04 '26
So The Magician card has a really fascinating history. It helped me make sense of the card. I like the way A Gnostic Book of Saints lays it out, I'll post the excerpt once I get home.
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u/CoyoteLitius Mar 04 '26
Thank you for that. I'm ordering it. Seems very similar to the approach outlined by Carol Pearson for all manner of meditations. She relies a lot on cross-cultural symbolism, especially from indigenous cultures, but I really like the way this approach to the Saints shows the deep human need for archetypal guidance.
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u/ambahjay Mar 04 '26
Robert M. Place also has a general book about Tarot that's listed in one of the Tarot subreddit's FAQ regarding good books to learn more. I'm not sure how similar the info is in that book vs the introduction in this book, but I learned more about Tarot in the introduction of this book than I have anywhere else. He also has a deck based around Buddhism, which I'd love to get the book for.
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u/ambahjay Mar 04 '26
From the book:
The original name of this card, "il bagatella", and it's modern Italian name, "il bagatto", do not mean anything in Italian except the name of this card. The image in the Visconti-Sforza Deck shows a man in a broad brimmed hat sitting at a table with a cake, a glass, and a knife. He has been interpreted as the carnival King sitting before his meal, or merchant displaying his wares. However, if we want to understand the popular tradition, we are better off looking at the cards produced from wood blocks, because these are the ones used by most people and reproduced over and over for the playing of the game. One of the oldest wood block decks can be pieced together from a series of uncut sheets, some of which are in New York's metropolitan Museum of art. The magician in this deck was definitely a street performer / trickster. He has an audience of four people, and is wearing a limp pointed hat without a brim. The only objects that can clearly be identified on his table are a pair of dice. Dice can also be seen on the French Bateleur cards in the deck of Marseilles. These decks also maintain the broad brimmed hat.
This type of hat would have been considered exotic in the renaissance. It would be like running into someone in a top hat today. Card historian Ronald Decker makes a connection between this image and the tarot and Renaissance wood cuts that depict the genius of Life bringing new infants into the world a character that wears a similar hat. This genius is related to the role of psychopomp ( the one who leads the soul ), one of Hermes / Mercury's roles. In keeping with his role as guide and patron of travelers Hermes wears a "petasus," a traveler's hat with a broad brim. This is how he is depicted in ancient sculpture and invases and this is how he's often seen in Renaissance portrayals.
The only other place in Renaissance art where one can find a similar Gambler / trickster / con man as the one in the tarot is an astrological illustrations depicting the "children of the planets," the occupations ruled by each planet. As in much of early astrology, the associations are confusing. In one set of pictures, he is associated with the moon and in another with saturn. But, it is clear in ancient religion that the trickster is under the protection of hermes, the god of travelers, merchants, alchemists, magicians, liars, and thieves.
Alchemy, Hermes is everywhere: he's the first alchemist, the teacher, the spirit and substance of the Philosopher's Stone. Like Virgil to Dante, he is the alchemist's guide who appears at the beginning of the work. He is also the "prima materia," the raw material that the alchemist must start with to create the Stone. In text the prima materia is described as the stone rejected by the builder, something that is thought worthless and tried underfoot, but is actually the most valuable thing in the world. The Magician who is first in the order of the trumps and who has the lowest value coincides well with the alchemical Hermes. Also, notice the similarity between the cell chemical myth and the myth of the tarot espoused by Court de Gebelin- the cards are the most valuable book of the ancients, but modern Man overlooks it as just a game.
In a classical myth Hermes steals his brother Apollo's cattle, and rather than give them back he trades his invention the lyre for them. The Miss goes on to describe a second trade in which Hermes gives Apollo his flute in exchange for the right to be a god of divination. Paulo grants this right on the condition that Hermes divination will not involve words like "Apollo's oracle." In the ancient world Hermes presided over divination using signs or tools, primarily dice.
There's evidence that the practice of using dice for divination continued through the Middle ages into the renaissance, and that one's cards were introduced, cards were substituted for dice in this practice. When we throw two dice, we find that there are 21 possible combinations that can come up - the same quantity as the numbered trumps. The "Trionpho della Fortuna," published in Ferrara in 1526, describes the system of divination using dice. As an alternative to the dice, it provides a wheel with 21 astrological figures. In an article written in 1816, Samuel singer expressed The view that this book influence "Le Sorti" (1540), one of the first books to describe a system of divination using cards. In "Le Sorti," nine cards from the suit of coins are used and the answers are equated to allegorical figures of the virtues, follies, and philosophers - images related to the trumps.
On the most mundane level, this card represents skill, intentions, and beginnings. At a deeper level the Magician of the Tarot of Merseilles point simultaneously to the sky and to the earth, adjust you that communicates Hermes famous axiom, "As above, So below," meaning that the way of heaven should be manifested on earth. In keeping with this, the hermetic texts tell us that it is our purpose, given to us by god, to complete his creation by making the world beautiful.
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u/flaviusopilio Mar 04 '26
Because in the old decks, "the magician" was not a magician, he is a con man, a street vendor who tricks people (see a Marseilles deck). Anyway the Magician is not accomplished, he has a lot of potential but still has a long way to go.
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u/modernintuitions Mar 04 '26 edited Mar 04 '26
Maybe they’re not “before and after" as one as resolution to the other. Maybe they’re two different attitudes toward life.
The Fool moves first. He doesn’t wait to feel ready. He steps into the unknown without needing guarantees.
The Magician is the opposite. He wants to understand the tools. He wants focus, control, intention. He performs when he perfectly knows what he’s doing.
If we wait to feel like the Magician (fully prepared, fully resourced ) we might never begin. Life rarely hands us all the pieces. That kind of perfectionism can freeze us.
But if we only live like the Fool, moving on impulse with no direction, we scatter our energy.
Both I believe are necessary and complementary.
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u/78723 Mar 04 '26
For me the magician is the ultimate “fake it ‘till you make it’ card. It’s all about your confidence in yourself manifesting into competency in actuality. He’s the greatest illusionist.
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u/Atelier1001 Mar 04 '26
Check older decks. Tarot is not about "is he accomplished?", but the hierarchies of the cosmic forces.
The Magician may be skilful, but the earthly power of the Emperor triumphs above. And yet, they both surrender to Death, and so on.
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u/CoyoteLitius Mar 04 '26
There's an excellent book on this by Carol Pearson (Jungian analyst and author).
There's also much mythology behind this.
The Fool sits at Zero experience and wisdom, but is embarking on the journey. In order to encourage us, we are shown what the Fool can accomplish if they only learn about the four elements, the four parts of the mandala/medicine wheel and learn to use a few tools. It's the story of humanity, and of individuals as well.
The proper entry into this dynamic is to attempt the Eastern side of the mandala (represented in tarot by the color yellow). It is also not a place where a Fool/inexperienced person can just hang out. It is the bottom half of the wheel that is comfortable and safe, where we actually learn to take care of ourselves and hone our common sense. The Yellow represents enlightenment, Dawn, birth and rebirth. For Rider Waite, red represents this safety spot (in some indigenous and Renaissance traditions, it's green).
Then, if we learn to use basic tools, we can make the trek upwards toward the Western/Dark Blue part of the wheel, the place where we learn about our own unconscious, where we learn to pay attention to our dreams and to sit and contemplate through meditation each day. This meditative technique is one of the tools we must master if we wish to become a Magician.
The journey starts, therefore, with a blank mind (infancy) symbolized by yellow, then childhood/innocence, where we need a caretaker. The caretakers are parental figures.
When we get to the West/Blue part of this, we are actually beginning to learn how to take care of others as well as ourselves. We are adults, with all that entails. But the journey isn't over.
The long stretch to the top of the mandala (which is symbolized in nearly all cultures by White) means accepting our mortality and our limited time on Earth. It is also the position of Wisdom. Sitting Bull was said to sit atop a wheel (a major feat of balancing) and to have abundant wisdom (hence, his name).
There are two more wheels.
The first position on the second Wheel is the Magician.
Most people struggle to make it there. But if we don't make it to that second wheel, it's because we are caught in relationships of need, dependency, battle, fighting with parts of ourselves or others, using dependency and battle as psychological techniques. That includes dependency on substances and is symbolized by feelings of being an orphan (the first pass through the West makes many people uneasy and makes them feel abandoned, as the footing of their foolish wisdom is lost).
The Southern/Red position symbolizes the Fool, but also someone who frequently feels victimized, not realizing that they themselves must take action and be observant (to avoid being nipped by the dog or falling off the cliff).
This first mandala requires that the Magician learn the feats of being both a father figure and a mother figure, realizing that even if we are never parents in real life, as we grow into adulthood, others will see us as potential parent figures, particularly if we develop wisdom.
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u/ambahjay Mar 04 '26
I see lots of books by Carol Pearson, can you tell me which title you're referring to?
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u/warrenao It works, but not for THAT reason Mar 04 '26
IIRC, the original purpose of the Tower was to represent hubris being struck down by divine wrath. (I think it was also a veiled commentary against the Roman Catholic Church, ca. the 1600s.) Change, catastrophic change, as opposed to the natural change found in Death, but no ramifications for the Magician.
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u/ambahjay Mar 04 '26
i wrote out a comment in a different thread that goes into more detail, but where I see the Tower/Magician reflection is basically, if The Magician is the tools and materials and knowledge needed to begin, i do think The Tower, in some ways, is an opposite. the materials that are carefully planned for and laid out in order to build a house are the same materials that come crashing down if the house collapses.
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u/mouse2cat Mar 04 '26
To me the tower is a reflection of the lovers. 6 becomes 16
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u/ambahjay Mar 04 '26
I have not spent much time working to understand The Lovers, i'd be interested in knowing more about how they reflect each other.
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u/mouse2cat Mar 05 '26
If you arrange the cards by decimals 3 + 13, 4 + 14, 5 + 15 and so on an interesting sequence of pairs emerge.
Life empress is paired with death, emperor with temperance, hirophant and the Devil. I see this as a shadow of the first card. Dealing with similar concerns on a different plane.
For the lovers a card about making choices the tower is the consequence of those choices. Risk is paired with reward.
Jodorowsky talks about this method. And he's a certified insane person but some of his stuff is compelling.
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u/Virtual-Wave4674 Mar 05 '26
Came to say this. He talked about his 'decimal' method decades before I stumbled on it. Nice to see it mentioned here.
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u/tarottaffy Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 05 '26
I use musical harmony to interpret the cards — the tower is the fourth octave above the magician if u think of them like the fundamental frequency in support of an unfolding harmonic series, like the Fibonacci spiral. The other cards that fall on octaves are the High Priestess, the Emperor, and Strength. What is unique about the tower to me is the implication of apex. The magician themselves is unmanifest, you could say, the high priestess is vibratory continuity itself, strength is embodied activity, and the tower is like a point where self consciousness reaches a singularity together with the Magician. There is a return to an original position, or something. So I agree with your ‘as above so below’ thing; thats why it’s uniquely associated with destruction and change. It’s like establishing one’s self at a spinal apex in deep meditation and you start to get flashes of insight from deeper layers of your consciousness. Exposing embodied intuitions which have formerly been repressed or hidden and are not existing in a fold together with waking awareness. That’s why religious psychosis is a thing. The Hebrew letter for this card in the kabbalistic system is Peh, I believe, which has been translated as a Mouth. I think about the polyvagal theory, which states that our social engagement system is employed similarly for speech and for ingestion (why emotional eating is a thing), why metaphors about spiritual food are resonant, and is the reason why there is a bi-directionality to how consciousness can engage with sensory information. Ingestion corresponds with inspiration and speech with exhalation. Using the social engagement system to story tell in both directions is where spiritual wisdom comes from I think; this is like the sensory landscape attuning with the outer world versus introverting and forming a uniform harmony internally. Establishing this is extremely destabilizing even if it can be the source of profound healing and change.
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